Tuesday, April 8, 2014

Al Rodbell on Peak Democracy

We recently added local resident Al Rodbell's thoughtful blog to the blogroll at left.

Mr. Rodbell responded with the following. We agree with Mr. Rodbell's concerns about the Peak Democracy blog purchased by the city council. It is at best a worthless toy, at worst an easily manipulated tool for city insiders and special interest groups to create the illusion of public support for their pet projects.

As for the weak mayor and weak council issue that Mr. Rodbell raises, we agree that the council has been little more than a rubber stamp for City Manager Gus Vina's plans, but we see this as a failure of leadership of the current council, not as a structural problem. Vina serves at the pleasure of the council. His failures and deceptions are theirs. Vina only controls the council because they have abdicated their oversight responsibility.  If the council had the intellectual capacity and the will to challenge Vina, they could.

But let us not bloviate on. Take it away, Al:
Greetings.  Thanks for posting my article Al Rodbell's Blog "Peak Democracy" implementation update as of April

Much of my writing and actions at the council on this issue have been written at different times -- from initial gut reaction, actually better described as revulsion, towards this program; then after further research, and finally now reaching a more comprehensive broader view. There is less anger at the President of the company, Mike Cohen, than focus at our defective city governmental system that allows those such as he to exploit it.

The article in my web site that you feature, the "April update," only briefly described the chain of events that was sparked during by a conversation with one of our most informed citizen advocates who described that initial council meeting. I have now appended links of details, including several articles that critique Peak Democracy, ironically from two opposite directions. One, a short column claiming that Mr. Cohen is not true to his "populist" credentials, that in reality the program is designed to help city hall deflect movements such as Prop A. The other longer one published in "Dissent Magazine" is much deeper, and concludes after tracing the gestation of this commercial entity from a citizen based movement in Berkeley, that such easy-access populism will result in the loss of those few who actually show up at meetings and put their emotional well-being on the line by challenging simplistic damaging council actions.

While seemingly contradictory, they both point out to me how Peak Democracy will exacerbate our problems. Yet, in making my case against a company, I realize that what has to be seriously evaluated is the structure of the City Manager system of local government, which entails part time citizen council members. Our council takes all the heat without concomitant authority- so irrespective of certain bad choices that have been made by them that deserve condemnation, a confrontational tone between council majority and voters is often inevitable.

The upcoming election for Mayor is, upon reflection, an example of both defects of Peak Democracy. It was created by direct democracy's baby, Proposition K, but the public voted on their illusion of what "mayor" means, and not the reality based on our city manager system. Right now the Mayor, while possessing no executive branch authority, does have this indirectly by being the representative of the majority faction, which in the aggregate can discharge a City Manager at will. (It's like the power of a Majority leader or Speaker of the House) This this will no longer necessarily be the case when s/he is independently elected. So, what the public did, based on the assumption that an elected mayor would have more authority, allowed the possibility that s/he will have even less.

I had written the above before the vote on Prop K, but it was only read by a few on my website and those on my personal email list. Elections are populist events, the one time when those few who make great efforts at a legislative body have the same single vote as those who are voting with no real understanding of what each candidate stands for, as I myself do when voting for for county and school board offices.

Describing defects in any complex system such as city government is easy, arriving at preferable, yet possible, solutions is a whole different kettle of fish. So, while I'll continue to try to gather support for derailing the implementation of Peak Democracy, enabling the council to confront Mr. Cohen on the exaggerations of his "salesmanship" -- which should result in cancellation of the contract for the services; this should be an occasion to consider a broader restructuring. If this means adopting a Charter city system, this certainly should be explored. One thing I'm convinced of is while there is no system of government at any level that is bulletproof, just trying to achieve something close can be a useful exercise.

171 comments:

  1. Great job on getting this information about Peak Democracy out. It is imperative that the contract with them be cancelled in order to save thousands of dollars. This money could be used to help fix the things that need to be done now.

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    1. Actually, ever since the appointment of Mr. Muir, normal citizens who have wanted to participate in person have been bullied by the 'usual suspects'; (both in and out of chambers) and so while $9K sounds like a lot, its a pittance if it allows people who work out of town and 40 hours a week (Not from home like most on this blog: if they work) an opportunity to share/leave their opinion.

      If Mr. Rodbell wants to be taken seriously, he might start by spelling Mr. Vina's name correctly.

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  2. I oppose becoming a Charter city, that's how the mess happened in Bell.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303612804577531181167707276

    I do support the effort to remove Peak Democracy, I simply think it's too expensive and won't deliver on its promises. The bank for the buck isn't there, and I think it is open to exploitation. Sadly it's one more case of the business and lobbying class making a buck off of the people's backs, even though it's nothing new. Democracy is messy, don't try and tame it.

    -Mr Green Jeans

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    1. Green Jeans-
      PD is a $9,000 price tag-

      Who will hold Gaspar and Muir accountable for driving the city to the brink of financial bankruptucy? Under their watch the city can't meet their obligations-

      They are making this $9K an issue for their own selfish political reasons- if they truly were responsible they would not have voted to spike pensions, increase cabinets and act reckleslly to finance to Hall Park- they are financial charlatans

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    2. Well, actually Muir and Gaspar weren't on the council when the pensions went up, but I don't trust them to hold the line monetarily. No to Peak Democracy.

      -El Senor Verde

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    3. Speakin' of Peekin Democracy',

      I got this email survey today supposedly from Encinitas....who knows. Looks like another place to leave a lot of your private information out blowing in the wind.

      Dear Fellow Leucadians;
      The City of Encinitas is doing a survey to discover pedestrian and traffic concerns. In case you have not already participated in this survey, please take the time to share your input. Attached is the City Survey link:




      https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/LetsMoveEncinitas_SRTS




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  3. But what will our new communications person do if we get rid of Peak Democracy he said sarcastically. In fact, what does she do now?

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    1. Costs the City, $135,000 plus overhead costs like office space, utilities, other facility costs. That about it….

      Good Job City Council! Instead of shrinking Employee Costs, your spiking them!!!

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    2. She does a great job blogging for the City Manager….

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  4. I always believe, a real leader, leads by example and actions speak louder than words.

    Considering these inherent truths, I believe we should elect leaders that follow these principals. First Example, I believe Jerry Stocks was soooo hated because he claimed to be a fiscal conservative but was totally in bed with the unions and gave a 35% increase in pension to himself and everyone else at City Hall all in one nights vote. He did the opposite of following these principals. So:

    As we review the candidates for our upcoming election or are trying to decide whether to give any creditworthiness of gadflies, lets see how they all address the following:

    Before making sooooo many suggestions to others for other people matters, lets look at how well they are managing your own affairs.- OK Candidates and gadflies:

    1. Is your home in order and appealing for the neighborhood's well being?

    2. Is your financial health well and are you able to contribute to community needs? or are you dependent on others and in DEBT?

    3. Is your mental and physical health well? or are you deferring needed maintenance?

    By answering these questions, candidates and gadflies will be providing others reason to give them some credibility. How about it?

    If I get no takers, I take a crack at Gaspar's draft answers for her.

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    1. Your post would make more sense if you would leave out your judgmental descriptor, "gadflies." That was Anton Gerschler's criticism of me in his letter to the editor to the Coast News.

      By sharing your name, publicly, here, you would be "providing others reason to give [you] some credibility. How about it?"

      Why don't you tell us who you are and answer all the questions you pose to "gadflies" and potential candidates, rather than "taking a crack" at draft answers for someone else?

      You seem to be fixated on horseflies. Do you feel like livestock?

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    2. That about some up a typical response from Lynn. As usual, off point and completely non logical. Well most of us can concisely answer the questions for you: 1)No. 2) No and 3) No.

      Thanks for your shorter response. Maybe you too a walk yesterday and enjoyed the sunshine. Hint- Repeat same good behavior today!

      Thanks

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    3. Thanks lynn,

      Expected response which completely misses the point. Seek to understand before opening your mouth or ranting.

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    4. 1) no 2) no 3) no

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    5. Yes- it is election season and political operatives making the case for Gaspar will be coming out of the woodwork. Let's look at 9:54 questions

      1. Gaspars personal house may or may not be in order- but who cares? Gaspar the council person awarded Phil Cotton an extra paycheck spiking his pension, raided $7M from fudned projects that we now can't replace, went another $10M in debt on a bond offering that maxed out the city credit back and reduced our credit standing, increased our annual debt service by $600K that we c asn't afford, approverd Pedr Norby getting a $100K contract after Norby was exposed as irresponsible, voted to give MIG $1.3M ina survey that is a waste, voted to give True North $66,000 for a survey her husband used for political ends, approved Rutan and Tucker getting $50,000 , approved Vina hiring a PR spin Doctor, failed to represent citizens under the Naylor Act at Pacific View-

      9:54 is a troll intent on controlling the discussion and narrative and electing a developer friendly council


      Under her watch Gaspar has driving the city to the financial brink of disaster- she actually now wants to hoodwink the public that she is a cosnervsative- she isn't, she is a failure.

      Anyone but Gaspar-

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    6. 9:54- right, that is why you are at city hall every Weds pm leading by example and not hiding behind a keybaord right? - giove me a break

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    7. 9:54 sounds like an out-of-touch preacher, somebody who lives in his own world where nothing resembles reality. Send him to the principal's office on principle for a paddling.

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    8. Lynn- you post your name simply because you seek recognition. Fred is the only on on this blog that doesn't scream " Hey look at me, I'm Fred".
      I would prefer if you posted anonymously. ( more people would read the comments, your name poisons many that come here for news and Information, making your message diluted). Suit yourself......

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    9. ANYONE BUT GASPAR!

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    10. 9:54 thanks for revealing you are Gaspar's campaign manager or operative- yes, please take a crack at explaining her position for all of us - tell us how her financial and peson house ir in order, while the city she runs is not

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    11. Actually, Jerome was mostly hated for his bad attitude and the way he treated people around town. Sadly, he was and is also a RINO who wanted to go up the line politically like James Bond, but never really got it going in career politician mode.

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    12. 9:54, wow, a not so subtle rip on Lynn. If you don't like what she is writing, don't read it. You're not adding anything to the discussion.

      I think most of his here know how to judge a candidate. Gaspar and anyone else has a current track record on the council we can judge them by. And as no one who contributes to the board is going to run as far as I know, we don't have to go there.

      Muir and Gaspar can be judged by the record at city hall, that's it. Anyone new to the game will have to get involved and see how well they can discuss the pertinent issues.

      Thanks for that shot of hate and stupidity, I have to have some wheat grass and cleanse myself...

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    13. 1:25-you are welcome. People that posts their names seek adulation regardless of their opinions, with the exception pointed out above. You, on the other hand have nothing of value to add so it's best to remain anonymous least your neighbors laugh at you.

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    14. Where's my adulation? I sign my name to I can hold a dialogue, that's the only reason.

      -Mr Green Jeans

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    15. -Mr Green jeans and all the other handles are anon… don't kid yourself. Its all anon….

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    16. 8:27, at the July 11 2012 Council Meeting at the Community Center, Kristin Gaspar was the only Council Member who questioned then Mayor Jerome Stocks and other Councilmembers' unfunding of the Open Space and Habitat and Acquisition Fund, the flooding funds, and other funds, without further Council discussion and prioritization. She questioned the need for a garage for lifeguards at Moonlight Beach, on the bluffs. She thought some of the Moonlight Beach improvements, such as that, could be deferred. Jerome Stocks laughed at her. No other Councilmember, including Teresa Barth raised one word of objection. Check the webcast for the date for verification.

      Kristin Gaspar did end up going along with the rest of Council, in her vote, so it was unanimous, to unfund all those earmarked funds, and float another lease revenue bond with no lease revenue stream. Lease revenue bonds are NOT to be collateralized as homes can be. Hence the name, LEASE REVENUE BOND. The City should have, instead, allowed a public vote, for a General Obligation Bond.

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  5. 9:42, what "promise" are you talking about? Vina and Lew were clearly connected during the meeting and via email. She appeared to be speaking in some kind of code re: delivering a pre-determined public response she could lead residents into. We know Lew is not on the up-and-up here - nor is Vina - so what exactly do you mean?

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  6. Was 2011 the last year for Councilman Mark Muir as a city employee - fire chief? He did well that year with total pay and benefits of $298,920.18.

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    1. OMG- His yearly payout for CALPERS must be insane like over $220,000 per year. This crap has to stop!!!

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    2. For the umpteenth time on this blog, his pension rounds up to $176K per year.

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  7. 9:54- You must be a friend of Jerome's as I cannot think of a single person ever referring to him as Jerry, at least on this blog. All of the sudden you appear out of where and come up with asking us questions? If I didn't know better, you sound like another "shrink" and we already have a resident "shrink", so I am guessing you are either trolling, and or a developer. Whoa re you to say if our house should be in order? If that were the case, Muir would look like a great candidate to you, as he has a great pension. And how in the hell would we now if anyone's health is in physical or psychological order. Those aren't the questions to ask any hopeful candidate. Ask them where they stand on the issues. I sure as hell wouldn't tell you or anyone else about my personal "house" as it has no relevance and no one has any business asking me about my financials. You must be the TIG guy, or whatever he or she goes by. Use your freaking name or shut the F up. You're worse than Lynn, maybe shorter sentences, but much more arrogant and not helpful. At least does some homework. If you are new to the blog, why don't you read others for a while a sit a couple of rounds out?

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    1. Love it coming from an anon- Ha!!

      Friend of Jerry's - Ha. Clueless especially since I highlighted his achilles heel of politics.

      "no relevance and no one has any business asking me about my financials"- Really? I believe real leaders lead by example.

      Muirs house and financial house may be in order, but done so at by gaming a flawed system which is responsible for the main financial problem for all City Governments. I would say that makes me question his integrity. If he is truly getting over $200k a year in retirement, he should be making some huge financial donations to city projects and programs. I don't see it.

      Your rant shows your quick to judge….. maybe you should slow down a bit and seek to understand before passing judgement and ranting.

      I look forward to the next response to these key questions.

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    2. 5:58 your logic does sound like the flawed failing logic of the so called TNG who wants to turn city hall into a bar like 'The Del mar Plaza' - taking another asset away from residents and sticking it to taxpayers. See how it works? - I do.

      Rather that talk about the failings of Gaspar and Muir as council members you would rather direct the discussion to how Gaspar and Muir are responsible in their personal lives- you of course know as public stewards they have failed.

      I could care less what Gaspar and Muir may or may not be in their personal life- I do care that they raided accounts of $7M, increased the city debt by $10M, increased the annual debt service by $600,000 and have no plan to pay it back- it is reckless, destructive and a failure.

      If you lead by example how many council meetings do you go to a month?? How many times have you addressed the council in a year? How many letters to the editor have you had published?

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    3. City Hall is an asset?!?! Really?!?!? Very few corporate headquarters are owned - they're rented. Headquarters, and City Halls, do not generate income. It makes no economic sense for Encinitas to own it's office space. So why not turn that "asset" into an asset that the community will use? I'm not a fan of PV, but regardless of the outcome it will be used by many more residents than city hall. As are other assets, like the libraries, trails, Moonlight beach, all the parks. Besides, what's so bad about the Del Mar Plaza (other than ingress and egress)? It's a nice project that showcases great views of the ocean. And we could do it better.....

      - The Sculpin

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    4. Yes, we need more bars and drinking establishments downtown - provided we of course don't live downtown.

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    5. yea, we could also use a few more book stores, maybe fashion, art galleries, jewelry store, oh - and a head shop!!
      Jeeze - why does EVERYTHING have to be a bar? Is Del Mar Plaza full of bars? Nope...but they do have high end restaurants.........

      - The Sculpin

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    6. 5:58- I will repeat what has already been said. No one on this blog has ever called Jerome, Jerry. So Mr. Andreen, or whoever you are attempting to preach to us, why don't you go back under the rock you crawled out from. It's beginning to be silly season, but hey, you're starting early.

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    7. Me thinks thou does infer too much..........................

      The "Shakespeare" Sculpin

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  9. The council is elected to serve the public on issues relevant to our city. That is the record we need to be looking at. Another person pointed out exactly what Gaspar's record has been since she has been in office. I must say, it is not impressive. If we continue to keep re-electing the idiots that keep making bad decisions for our city, then WE are to blame. Simply vote them out of office. Let them know they had their chance and they FAILED us. Gaspar has failed us and so has Muir. When it comes election time, do not re-elect Gaspar for four more years. Enough is enough. We need responsible leaders who are not puppets.

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    1. He represents Olivenhain....he's got a good head on his shoulders....he actually ran something of consequence....that's all I need to know........he's got my vote (when/if he runs again)...

      - The Sculpin

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    2. Muir set up and ran a political action committeee exploiting fireman claiming it was a fireman Political Action Committee when it's only member was Muir.

      The Muir PAC then supported Jerome Stocks who later approved Muir getting a pension increase - see how it works ? I do.

      That's all I need to know about Muir - he doesn't have my vote. Insiders and cronies seek to benefit themelves, not the community.

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    3. Well, until there's an alternative...................

      - The Sculpin

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    4. 12:35 let's not leave out that the Stocks led council took out $20 million in bonds in 2005/2006 told the public they would help pay for the Hall Prk- but then money went to build luxurious new firehouses instead- (maybe one was needed but 4? ) yes- I too see how it works

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    5. Are we thinking Muir still may be thinking of running for mayor? He'd be better than Gaspar, I think he could lead, but I still think we have to do better.

      -Mr Green Jeans

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    6. Dr. Lorri, well how wonderful that Muir is your friend and that one time he spoke up. Let's look at his bigger voting record as stated by others here on this blog. That is what people remember. We also know that he is a wonderful friend of $tock$. That is a big detriment to him because he and Gaspar keep aligning themselves with someone the public truly detested. I hope you have him over for dinner and drinks soon. I will not be voting for him when his time comes, but thanks for your most valuable input.

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    8. Reagan and Tip O'Neill were good friends. Bob Dole and Bill Clinton. What about Matalin and Carville, Shriver and Schwarzenneger - it's no big deal.....there are a few good indicators of supreme intelligence; one is delayed gratification; the other is to put differences aside to enjoy the company you're with.

      - The Sculpin

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    9. 4:14 Maybe you can convince your dear friend Muir that he needs to get rid of Vina and Sabine, but I doubt very much he will listen to you. In terms of the parties, who cares? It's just another way to hob nob with people for votes. That's all that amounts to. So not impressed.

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    10. Presidents Carter and Ford also became fast friends, after they had served their terms.

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  11. Muir-

    2012 voted yes to raiding $7M from funded projects with no plan to replace that money- now we learn the city is in bad shape, guess he shouldn't have raided this accounts without a plan to pay it back

    2012- voted yes to going $10M in debt without a plan to pay for the increased annual debt service- now we learn the city is running a deficit- guess he shouldn't have voted to icnreae debt service without a plan to pay ti back.

    2012 voted yes to spending $66K on a the true north 'feel good' survey- money we could use for other things.

    2013- voted yes over the objections of residents to enable VIna to hire a spin doctor by approving $135,000 for the position we don't need

    2013-looked the other way when Vina hired Rutan and TUcker for $50,000.00

    2012- Voted yes to renewing PEdr Norby $100,000 a year contract against the wishes of residents who spoke - money we could not afford

    Gaspar, Muir and Barth have all failed resdients- they city is near bankrupt on their watch, is that why Lew Edwards said many of her clients are teetering on bankruptcy?

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  12. Let's not forget pushed HARD to defeat Prop A.

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    1. Everyone on council pushed to defeat Prop A. I will say that at the subcommittee to set up a FAQ page on the City's website, and to send out "educational materials," which would have used the FAQs created by staff, to oppose Prop A, just as Glenn Sabine's NOT impartial analysis for our sample ballots did, Mark Muir said he had an "epiphany."

      Despite Tony's suggestions for printing the "educational" materials and staff's recommendations for FAQs, etc., Mark said no to the FAQ page, which would have been more propaganda against Prop A and he said no to the City's mailing out educational materials that he knew would not be "purely factual, objective, and neutral."

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  13. 1:57 signed his (muir) and her (Gaspar/Barth) named to a ballot statement that was sent to all voters that knowingly lied - claiming no upzoning and happened without a vote of the people that there "will never be" plans for a 5 story buildings -

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  14. Muir or Gaspar ....... like choosing arsenic or cyanide.

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    1. Muir's not up for election, now. Every council member signed his or her name to those phony baloney ballot arguments.

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    2. Awesome Lynn's pitching for Muir…. that is a nail in the coffin. Might as well call yourself $tock$!

      Haaa!

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    1. Dr. Lorri, I have heard rumblings the last week or two on someone running, stay tuned.

      -Mr Green Jeans

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    2. Right. Dr. Lorri does not know all.

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    3. 4:59- And you do, right? Whatever else you might say about Dr. Lori, she does have the nerve to put her name on her posts. And she has taken plenty of heat for it. If you think she is self aggrandizing, you're an idiot. She has been involved in our city for about 25 years and has pointed fought for things that she felt was wrong. When I saw her on t.v. taking on Glen Sabine, I thought, I don't think I could do that. She has spoken many times at City Council meetings, and volunteered for Parks and Rec. COmmisison. Not her fault if they gave them nothing to do. What, pray tell, have you done? I hardly think someone who has given her time and money to get Tony elected deserves your sarcasm. How were we to know that Tony would not be what he proclaimed to be. She has need said she is a psychic or has special prediction powers. Your posts are obnoxious, and to call someone out, be it Lynn or Lorri, shows how petty you are. Fred gets a pass somehow. I like Fred, but he has said some pretty lame things as well. Sorry Fred, but it's true. And the rest of us are either to chicken , to afraid because of jobs, or just don't want to let people know who we are for whatever reason. I feel that Lynn, Lorri and Fred may not have as much to lose as some of us, and I never feel they are trying to be pompous asses. So, F U.

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    4. 5:32 My, you seem to have some anger issues. I recommend a session or two with Dr. Lorri. All I did was agree with the 4:26 post and commented that Dr. Lorri does not know everything. I will stand by that statement.

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    5. It's a sad state of affairs in our country when you can't sign your name on a public post, but the lack of jobs, the rigid corporate structure and the retaliation by city staff keep most of us from using our names.

      A lot of companies do not want to see your name out there in public in a non-official capacity, and if you're looking for a job, you better be sure that the company will look at your online profile.

      Couple that with the history of city staffs reprisals (against some people on this board who posted with their real names) and I think you can understand the need for anonymity.

      Through in a few of the trolls on this board such as the Road Warrior (pave my street), mr/Mrs. "fact" (Fact, Obama is from Kenya and Barth is a commie) and whoever posted the above at 5:32, and you have a recipe for anonymity.

      And for the record, no one is perfect, and I still welcome Fred's input as a longtime resident who is involved in his community. Same goes for Dr. Lorri, Lynn, WCV and the new guy. At least they're putting out some ideas and not just hate speech.

      -Mr Green Jeans

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  16. Gotta love math, facts:

    Use the ruler tool in Google Earth to measure the footprint of the current City Hall buildings. You will find that they measure about 50,000 square feet, which equates to 1.1 acres. A two-story building with the same floor space could have a footprint of 0.55 acres. The Pacific View parcel is listed at 2.82 acres in Zillow. That means in theory, even without shared spaces to consolidate, our current City Hall buildings could occupy only 19.5% of the Pacific View parcel, leaving the other 80.5% for the historic schoolhouse, and cultural and children's accommodations.

    Please do the measurements and math for yourself, then use facts and logic to explain why a shared concept design isn't worth investigating.

    --TNG.

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  17. 5:33
    City hall could take 19.5% of the property and 205% of the parking for their 140 employees.

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    1. Fred 5:44, if the geotechnical surveys support it, there is no zoning restriction on how deep underground parking can go.

      --TNG.

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    2. Damn, I knew Prop A forgot to restrict structures to 2 stories deep!

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    3. The City employs close to 240 people. Are you saying only 140 work and park at City Hall?

      Again, PV is a mostly residential neighborhood. Putting City Hall and an arts/edu center there — even if it all fit with underground parking and allowing for the required open space — would mean a traffic overwhelm.

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    4. 9:08,

      I agree. Traffic is a concern. But why not do the traffic study and reserve judgement for a time when we have quantifiable data?

      My goal isn't to force anything on the community. My goal is to create support to look at the options, and if the options are worthy, to bring it to a vote. If that vote is no, I would still be pleased with my contribution.

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    5. No need for a traffic study. I lived in that neighborhood for 22 years, and that was before downtown was anywhere near as congested as it is now. What you're proposing for the PV site would be a traffic overwhelm.

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    6. 10:18, I respect your view. If things continue as planned, you'll figure out my name, and a simple Goofle search will reveal that, a few years ago, I was publicly involved in protecting my street from traffic related to development.

      I get your passion.

      But consider that without City Hall, there will be pressure to fill that space with other uses, some of which may affect traffic even worse.

      Bottomline: do the analysis, and understand the implications before drawing conclusions.

      It would be irresponsible for me to conclude that the ideas I've expressed should be realized. I'd happily withdraw support for my own ideas if the analysis show serious harm to affected neighbors, or the community at large.

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    7. My estimation as a former resident in that neighborhood: With an underground parking garage, the proposed cultural center would have about as much traffic/street-parking impact as the former school. Adding City Hall would produce a traffic/parking overwhelm.

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    8. Agree, 10:50. The idea to develop the current City Hall property is a non-starter.

      a) Council would not agree
      b) not enough money to rebuild from scratch, even with a sale of the property for land value
      c) inadequate parking infrastructure, even with underground garages for City Hall and arts and learning center
      d) Underground parking at Pacific View so close to unstable bluffs would likely not be approved by the Coastal Commission d) rezoning of City Hall property to commercial/residential mix would require a public vote
      e) The public is entitled to 30% open space at Pacific View, according to the Naylor Act, or at least to be offered 30% open space at 25 cents on the dollar of the fair market price, through the City and the County, which was never done.
      f) Open space as defined by the Naylor Act does not include paved parking lots, but does include community gardens and fields.

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    9. g) Not enough parking infrastructure Downtown for more high density development, even with underground garages.

      h) The community does not want more high density development; hence, would not vote to rezone. Selling the land at City Hall is another high density development scheme.

      Delete
    10. 9:08,
      Yes, I was being conservative and only going by the 160 plus parking spaces currently at city hall and a 20 year old estimate of 140 employees that used to work there, but I just threw that number out there cause I knew someone would correct me.

      And 10:50, I also agree.

      Delete
    11. Okay Lynn, With as much respect as I can muster . . .

      "a) Council would not agree "

      So let's quit before trying, right? Hopefully you do not instill the same defeatist attitude in your children and grandchildren. Perhaps one day we can sit with kids at PV and use our surroundings as an opportunity to teach them about perseverance in the face of adversity. Besides, Council wouldn't be deciding, the voters would, in accord with the spirit and the letter of the "Right to Vote" initiative.

      "b) not enough money to rebuild from scratch, even with a sale of the property for land value "

      Show me the bids, estimates, and financial analysis--oh, right. We don't have those yet. Maybe we should do the homework before reaching conclusions.

      "c) inadequate parking infrastructure, even with underground garages for City Hall and arts and learning center "

      So, you've already seen the site plans and traffic studies to reach a conclusion based on data? No? (see B above).

      "d) Underground parking at Pacific View so close to unstable bluffs would likely not be approved by the Coastal Commission"

      This is a concern. However, there are underground garages underneath three or four condo complexes nearby on Sealane Drive--even closer to the bluffs. Let's see what the geotech surveys say.

      "d) rezoning of City Hall property to commercial/residential mix would require a public vote "

      Absolutely agree. This is a positive, not a negative. I think the people should have that vote. And if the whole package is voted down, the effort isn't a failure. If the people decide that borrowing is a better option, great. My goal is to give people an alternative. Residential hasn't been something I've advocated, but if voters think we really need more condos, they should have a voice (I doubt it).

      "e) The public is entitled to 30% open space at Pacific View, according to the Naylor Act, or at least to be offered 30% open space at 25 cents on the dollar of the fair market price, through the City and the County, which was never done. "

      The City agreed to purchase the whole property for $10M without invoking Naylor. Like it or not, Naylor is irrelevant now.

      "f) Open space as defined by the Naylor Act does not include paved parking lots, but does include community gardens and fields."

      see answer e.)

      "g) Not enough parking infrastructure Downtown for more high density development, even with underground garages."

      The idea is for the City to use bid/plan requirements to control the intensity of commercial uses at Vulcan, and force bidders to provide additional public parking. Ultimately, I trust the voters to decide if the public benefit and parking are enough. No offense to you Lynn, but I'll respect the will of the voters over your opinion any day.

      "h) The community does not want more high density development; hence, would not vote to rezone. Selling the land at City Hall is another high density development scheme."

      If the City fails to impose bid/plan evaluation criteria that moderate the commercial intensity, then the voters won't approve it. Simple as that. If you are right, and this becomes too high density, the circuit breaker for that problem is the ballot box.

      Delete
    12. The Naylor Act isn't irrelevant to the citizens. It may be to the City and to lawyers. The intent of the State Legislature is clear. Because EUSD and the City did not abide by the Government Code, does not mean that the public is not ENTITLED to 30% of the property, or .85 acre being open space, which could include beautiful community gardens, an opportunity for teaching horticulture, staging some small weddings, etc. Why are YOU giving up on the rights of the people, and the intent of the State Legislature in passing the Naylor Act. Just throwing more money at EUSD does NOT mean the Naylor Act doesn't apply.

      I said Council wouldn't vote to move City Hall in context with all the other reasons I've stated this high density development scheme is a non-starter.

      Delete
  18. And another thing. . . or, Why the Mossy parcel is pretty much useless in funding PV.

    1.) The City bought the parcel near the top of the market. To affect a sale now, the City may have to recognize a loss, which is a bitter pill politically.

    2.) I have heard, but cannot confirm that the property has been heavily mortgaged to fund park construction. If there is a standard 80% mortgage, then only 20% of the value of the property would be unlocked in a sale.

    3.) Subtract any loss in market value from the 20% equity assumed above.

    4.) The property is configured for an auto dealership, including service bays and showroom space. But no one is opening new auto dealerships. 20 year ago, there were 22,950 auto dealerships in the US. Last year, that number had dropped to 17,635 (see page five: https://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/1B512AC7-DCFC-472C-A854-6F5527931A2F/0/2013_NADA_Data_102113.pdf). The industry has been trying to get more efficient and competitive by reducing the number of middlemen on the payroll. A new buyer would likely want the property for some other use. Their bid price would be discounted to account for the cost of demolition and reconfiguration of the property. Subtract that from the assumptions above.

    5.) The City needs a public works yard. The proceeds from the sale of Mossy would first have to go to securing a new public works location before any money is made available to the purchase of Pacific View. If the alternate public works yard doesn't already have service bays to maintain the City vehicle fleet, then subtract that cost as well.

    I think you can see where this is going.

    Look, I'm not a developer. I'm a tech industry geek and a dad. The proposal I made on Sunday--I have nothing to gain financially from it. I've been here 15 years, and I love the place. I would hate to see the city's debt become unmanageable. I would love to see a nice cultural hub built on PV, without staring at weeds for 10 years like we did at Hall. I'm going to continue to work for a compromise that no one will love, but enough of us can live with.

    Cheers.

    --TNG.

    ReplyDelete
  19. New guy, you have made a proposal. Fine. It does not sit well so get over it and come up with something else if you are so motivated. After the way this city has treated its voters expecting us to approve of having the city move to and share the PV site will not fly. Next! And if you have have seen what the city has done to that property by paving over the fields, turning the back portion into a Sanford and Sons rusting metal junkyard from the Old School House view over the fence even considering your idea is preposterous. The clean up needed by what the city has done there is extensive. Next idea bring it on. Thanks for trying but that will not fly.

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    1. Er, his "idea" has merit. Can it be implemented, will the city council go for it, with the people vote for it? Those are the questions. Because logistically, it sounds like it could work. Politically I think it would be extremely hard to sell.

      I think we see resistance already from the community in the PV area about such a move. Clearly there are some people who are not fans of the city.

      I think the Quail Gardens property might be a better option, if available and if it could bring in a decent amount.

      -Mr Green Jeans

      Delete
    2. Why do I get the creepy feeling that TNG and Green Jeans are one and the same and trying to plant these weird "hey this thought just occurred to me" schemes? Both feel like a set-up and both have definite insider overtones.

      Delete
    3. I like TNG idea….

      TNG, Don't worry about KLCC (Lynn and her friends Bob and Sheila). They don't like anything…. You know the kind of people that bitch about everything and drain your energy when you talk to them.

      Keep up the good work!

      -Lovin Leucadia

      Delete
    4. If we're one and the same, then I'm going to need some money coming my way, lol!

      I apologize again for having a coherent thought. 9:25, what's your idea for how we're going to pay for PV?

      -Mr Green Doppleganger

      Delete
  20. 9:25. I think you are on to something. The sentence structure and paragraphs are quite similar. Hmmmm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Okay conspiracy theorists. Here's the proof that we are two people.

      Mr. Green Jeans, I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. If we are indeed the same person, you'll be thinking of the same number.

      Go.

      Delete
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    3. OMG. Green Jeans and TNG were both thinking 7!

      Delete
    4. 1/2!!!!

      -Mr Green Jeans

      Delete
    5. Sorry tin foil hat wearers, you'll have to look to the vapor trails in the sky for our true identities!

      -Mr Green UN

      Delete
    6. Those would be chem trails..

      Delete
    7. Sorry, I was on mind control agent.

      -Mr Green Thought

      Delete
  21. Ok, I'll take the challenge TNG. If your blogger name is truly your name, this will be easy. I've already figured out that Wc also owns the domains of Cardiffian, Encinitas Undercover, and 2 more that I am blanking on at the moment. And when I do find it, I will be happy to post it. I already know who Mr. GJ is, and I don't think they are the same people.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, if you know who I am, you know I'm not an insider at city hall, so there goes that bit of fun..

      -Mr Green Cape

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  22. Oh wow bid deal- I know who every Anon is, for I have access to the FBI'a internet IP address contacts list.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Better idea is City Hall at Quail Garden's City Property although same concept. City Hall should not be on prime real estate or near the coast. No need for it.

    I also like WC's idea of putting it at the old dump site. talk about being Green. Great idea. Lead by example.

    ReplyDelete
  24. 6:03, I thought of that, and it would be okay with me. But here's why I don't think it should be Plan A:

    --It brings in a third property into the plan, which adds complexity, making the whole proposal harder to explain to voters, and harder to execute logistically--more moving parts.

    --Not sure on this, but Quail may also require a rezone if we did that. It would be hard enough to get the voters on board to rezone one property--two is probably twice as hard.

    --Putting City Hall on Quail would require doing some construction on three parcels, not two. The anti-development anti-body response would be that much stronger, engaging concerned neighbors from three locations, not two.

    --As some have expressed (and I agree), there is a symbolic preference for City Hall to be downtown

    --I'm already concerned that City staff drive into a bubble in the morning, and out at the end of the day. The only interactions they have with residents are often adversarial. In the Walter Isaac biography of Steve Jobs, there is some great writing about the design and layout of the Pixar building. Jobs insisted that compartmentalized organizations become adversarial and dysfunctional. The layout of the building was specifically engineered to force people from different departments to interact with each other. I'm not suggesting that a shared concept would solve all of our problems as relates to the adversarial tone of civil discourse, but it couldn't hurt. Let the site design force elected officials and city staff to walk among us, and be part of the community--not "the other." Banishing City Hall to a remote location kind of does the opposite.

    Just my opinion. I could be wrong. Are these thoughts unfounded?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Encinitas UndercoverApril 10, 2014 at 7:09 AM

      What would Steve Jobs say about the symbolism and organizational effects of staff being physically barricaded at City Hall from the public?

      Delete
    2. Does TNG have a monetary interest in the outcomes of all this property numbers-gaming.? Sure feels that way.

      Delete
    3. I know you are being funny, but he would hate that idea.

      http://officesnapshots.com/2012/07/16/pixar-headquarters-and-the-legacy-of-steve-jobs/

      Delete
    4. Besides other misgivings expressed, the methane emissions at the former dump site would give cranky old revolutionaries like Marvy Charles the opportunity to incinerate the site and its personnel by lighting his cigar with a Bic lighter anywhere on the property.

      Delete
    5. Marvy Charles is an old hippie protestor? I demand photos! Fred, get out our detective kit!

      -Mr Green Holmes

      Delete
    6. If TNG has used his real name, it will be easy to find out who this person is. Why waste my time you ask? Because this person is pissing me off and that is as good of a reason as any. He or she posts shit that will never happen in this city, even if it might be a good idea. And, his rants are as long as Lynn's and Lynn actually has lived here a long time and knows how this city works. Will let everyone know who it is, when I find out. Unless, of course, he or she didn't use their real name when obtaining his gmail account.

      Delete
    7. My my are we cranky. TNG adds some good insight and information. What's wrong with a new perspective? What ideas have you added, 9:45, nada, zip, zilch.

      TNG puts out a coherent, well-reasoned argument. If you can't follow it, try turning off the boob tube and reading a book once in awhile.

      Go ahead and post your own name first if you're such a detective...

      Delete
    8. I, for one, don't mind the length of the not new person's posts. Write on. As long as our discourse is reasonable, even when I disagree with someone, I often enjoy reading or hearing other points of view.

      My online dictionary defines rant as: speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.

      A long essay is not necessarily a rant. I can be passionate, but I'm also, generally, compassionate. No one, not even JC is above having her or his buttons pushed, now and again, especially when that person is constantly targeted.

      But I do know that's the risk I take posting here. It was happening just as much, or worse, when I used to post anonymously.

      Because these columns, here, are narrow, and because a few repeat complainers posting here appear to have extremely short attention spans, which may be exacerbated by staring at the screen, either on TV, cell phones, I-Pads, lap-tops, etc, more than 100 words is excessive for those who bitterly object.

      Hey, this isn't Twitter. It's the longer posts that give meat to the conversation, in my opinion. If they are too much for you, skip them. Go find something else to do if you are bored.

      Delete
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      Delete
  25. TNG @ 6:50 - TNG brings some pretty good ideas to this discussion, and I like the direction he's taking, but by far the most important point he makes is:

    "I'm already concerned that City staff drive into a bubble in the morning, and out at the end of the day. The only interactions they have with residents are often adversarial."

    Folks - this is powerful stuff and could be very conducive to a cultural change at the city. Lynn maybe correct in her assessment that its a non-starter (albeit she gets there from a vastly divergent perspective), but we are the voters, and if we think this would benefit the city overall it must be explored and, if need be, imposed on the city.

    - The Sculpin

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    Replies
    1. When this post is finished, I have to go back to my day job for a while. On the subject of bad City Hall design contributing to a combative atmosphere . . .

      I'm not an architect, and I'll defer to Dr. L on the psychology, but 15 years ago I did some consulting with Washington Mutual on the technology to support a bank branch concept called Occasio. Basically, WaMu brought in some executives from the retailing industry to rework their branches. The retailers were horrified at how the teller stations worked. In retailing, they would never put a physical wall separating employees from customers, or worse, put the employees a step above the customer, as some teller stations do.

      We ended up inventing stuff to deal with the security and privacy issues of handling cash, checks, and sensitive documents. Occasio put the banker right next to the customer. They worked together during transactions sharing the same screen. I know it sounds touchy-feely, but the Occasio branches opened new accounts at 2.5x the rate of the normal branches.

      We're human, and physical barriers serve to divide us into groups. When I interact with people at City Hall with a big, wide counter separating us, I have to wonder which one of us has the infectious disease that the other is trying to quarantine. It's a small thing, but it still sends a message. Us and them.

      https://thefinancialbrand.com/5465/why-chase-is-killing-occasio/

      Delete
  26. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Isn't that we've all been talking about here, a total overhaul at city hall? I agree, as currently constituted, the city staff and council wouldn't implement the city hall/PV swap.

      I say we keep exploring any possibility, because it's our city, and let's not forget it.

      -Mr Green JEans

      Delete
    2. Dr. Lorri - I find this surprising coming from you! The very first political candidate I volunteered for gave me the following inspiration, which has guided me my entire life:

      "There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?"

      Sorry - but you just can not accept that "none of this is going to happen"....

      - The Sculpin

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    3. Dr. L,

      Maybe I have the luxury of an outsider who hasn't been defeated so many times. Or maybe in my earlier days as a long course triathlete I learned that things that look impossible can be done. Sometimes the hardest part is making the commitment to attempt it. It's not enough to dream of crossing the finish line. I've learned to back that dream with a plan. The plan will fail, probably many times. Make adjustments and continue moving forward. But I already have a plan, and things are in motion, that's all I care to say on that for now.

      Delete
    4. You are making assumptions when you seem to claim that anyone posting here is an "insider" who has been defeated many times?

      I agree with what you say about "things that look impossible can be done." That is exactly my perspective of the PUBLIC's demanding that EUSD must accept 0% interest over 30 years as terms of purchase of Pacific View, by the City. The citizens can also demand that 30% of the grounds at Pacific View, or .85 acre, remain as open space, including fields and community gardens, but not parking lots.

      Delete
    5. "things that look impossible can be done"

      The difference is, I'm not just repeating and wishing.

      You drive me nuts, sometimes Lynn, but your heart is in the right place.

      Delete
    6. I haven't "just been repeating and wishing," either.

      Delete
  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Lorri, I can't begin to thank you enough for all you've done to help our community, and to be a true friend. ☮~❤~☺

      Delete
    2. Sorry Dr. Lorri, but most of us are not interested in what went wrong in your childhood and how you overcame obstacles during your lifetime. We've all been done there, done that. You came here in 1984. A lot of us have been here much longer than that. Some were born here. Some have been involved in politics longer than you. We could all share our life stories and all would be unique. But, you are not any different than the rest of us. There are some of us here that have also helped the less fortunate. We don't need to go to drunken parties to get the inside scoop. Obviously, you have worked hard at trying to be an insider. Looks like you made it. I find things in life that are more important. Keep attending parties and hopefully you will find another drunk council person who will "spill the beans" but keep it to yourself because we really don't care.

      Delete
    3. I care to hear confirmation of what those of us on the "outside" suspect goes on on the inside.

      I care that Bond thought Sabine was "worth" $1M...we all should know what he did to earn Bond's opinion. It's OUR MONEY they're spending and wasting.

      Delete
    4. Am curious as to why that kind of information doesn't't interest you, 1:33- very curious.

      Delete
    5. " it isn't because of my huge ego, as TNG as suggested"

      huh? I think you have me confused with someone else. I remember saying that you and GJ were the adults in the room.

      Preaching? Hardly.

      I'm staying positive and moving forward. I'm also sharing most of my thinking and plans, even though I have been advised not to. If I disengaged completely, would you accuse me of backroom dealing?

      I'll happily unplug and work this project in the dark if that's what folks want. I thought sharing, even with people who oppose my ideas would be the neighborly thing to do.

      Delete
    6. I think most of us are interested in what Dr. Lorri knows. The information will only hurt those who have transgressed. It's not going to hurt most of us. I've lived here a lot longer that Dr. Lorri, but that makes no difference to me.

      Anonymous at 1:33 pm do you have something to hide?

      Delete
    7. 2:16 No, I have nothing to hide to answer your question. Who cares what some council person said at a drunken party? I would be questioning the friendship of the good doctor. If people knew she was talking about what they said in confidence, I think I would not invite her to another party. I have learned in life that when people brag about their accomplishments, they usually are seeking someone's approval or a pat on the back. That's like trying to convince people that you are a Christian when your actions don't reflect that. Enough said.

      Delete
    8. 3:22 - try focusing less on the alcohol-related aspect of what Dr. L tells us and what the supposed caretakers of the city are doing to destroy it. It's odd that you want to brush it aside so quickly and seem annoyed that others don't.

      Delete
    9. 3:22: I care. If a councilperson is revealing Brown Act violations, I care. If a Councilperson is sexually harassing a citizen, I care. If you are os callous as to think that this is OK or just plain bullshit, then you are an idiot.

      Delete
    10. An idiot and/or someone with something to hide that just might come out in one of these posts.

      Delete
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    1. I actually don't care about how jerome conducts himself - that's his wife's problem - but I do care about the deal-making done behind the scenes that was not in the public's best interests. As a taxpayer, that does interest me.

      Delete
    2. Completely believable. More stories will be added I'm sure.

      Delete
    3. Disagree with you 100%. If we're a nation of the people, by the people, for the people, I don't want someone with that kind of lack of decorum, judgment and morals representing me.

      I've heard this kind of thing about Jerome many times, and that's why in addition to his RINO ways, he had to go.

      Thanks for your input Dr. Lorri, it's always helpful to get that perspective. I agree with you that it's getting too ugly on here, lots of trolling, guessing, conspiracy thinking from angry, small minded people who will actually pull the "You're new here card" after being here 30 years.

      This from people who post anonymously. In the words of Kristofferson, "Don't let the Bastards get you down". And I know you won't.

      -Mr Green Salute!

      Delete
    4. 4:47 And that is why Jerome is gone.

      Delete
  29. 3:29-Seems like a lot of people in San Diego might disagree with you on how a politician conducts himself. It landed Filner in jail. You are truly a stupid person.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Adding to what 3:43 said- It is well known that Jerome drank a lot. how many secrets did he share and with whom. Dr. Lorri provided us with glimpse and probably knows more than she is telling on a blog. Thank you for at least telling us what you did Dr. L. As a citizen of this community I am appalled at his behavior.

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  32. 3:23 This is not a place for intimate details. I'm really surprised that you would actually post that. It confirms my first impression of you and will not elaborate on that further. I am interested only in what our council and city does with our money. I don't care what you have or are doing in your business or personal life.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. 4:06 Stupidity is NOT slapping Jerome in the face when he came on to you.

      Delete
    2. Some people think character doesn't matter...... but it does.

      Delete
  33. So is it any wonder bars & more bars are being pushed for downtown & now el camino? DAO now!

    ReplyDelete
  34. A few days ago, I joined the conversation here to promote something positive. Dr. Lorri didn't agree with my thinking, but she welcomed me for bringing new ideas and passion. I said my first impression was that she and Mr. Green Jeans appeared to be the adults in the room. I thought I was being civil, and trying to use logic and passion to gain the support of at least a few people here. I thought Dr. L may have been one of those people, or at least someone who would be somewhat neutral. I don't need extra enemies--it makes things harder.

    Today, I was taken aback when she said "it isn't because of my huge ego, as TNG as suggested." After her last post at 4:06, I went back in the thread, and found it. Yesterday afternoon there was a back and fourth with an Anon that led Dr.L to post this at 4:14: "2:47- No worries. I have learned to have a thick skin. And, thanks to the new troller, I also know that I am self-aggrandizing, I think that is what he or she said. Let's just face it, I am a pompous ass."

    I believe this is the "bully" she referred to in her last post, and she's convinced it's me.

    So to 2:47 yesterday, whoever you are a big thank you, and sarcastic slow clap.

    ReplyDelete
  35. TNG You need to go back further than that. You clearly intimated that Dr. L was self-aggrandizing.

    ReplyDelete
  36. 5:35, where?

    I crossed a line with Lynn in frustration, but not Dr. L.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, you did. And some, like Lorri, probably are frustrated with you, here.

      Delete
  37. TNG You did it on your post on Political Observations. Thanks a lot for helping us get rid of her. She was always a puppet for someone. You did us all a favor.

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    Replies
    1. Who was she a puppet for? She was always pretty straightforward about being involved in city affairs, and what her position was. She spoke with more clarity and forthrightness than just anybody else on this board. And, she had actual insight from the inside on workings down at the city. No one else on this board can say that, without revealing who they are.

      -Mr Green Jeans

      Delete
    2. I'm sure she'll help her good friend Muir get re-elected when his time comes. That way he can collect more pension from the city on top of what he is already getting.

      Delete
    3. I don't see it. I went back through the whole Political Observations thread.

      Near the bottom she said this: "But I do want to welcome TNG to the blog, if in fact you are new. As I said in another post, I like that you color outside the lines; that you are creative; and that you care. Great combo, IMHO."

      Look below that. There's nothing disrespectful from either one of us lobbed at the other. I still she thinks I was attacking her in unsigned posts, and that sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it.

      This forum is diminished if she's really gone.

      Delete
    4. 6:53, Muir's getting that big firefighter pension whether he's on council or not, although that's why he's on the council in the first place. The Stocks/Bond axis keeps muir in there, along with a lot of foolish votes, not Dr. Lorri.

      Delete
    5. 6:58 As I said, she'll help him get re-elected.

      Delete
    6. The thread will be better in my IMHO.

      Delete
    7. Every year he is on City Council or a water board in CALPERs his pension goes up 3% X his highest paid year. We know, don't worry Lynn, someone will help you with the math. Probably your new BFF Muir. Haaaaa!

      Delete
    8. 8:32,

      I hope that's not true. I doubt that a part-time role while already retired and receiving a pension would count as addtional years of service to multiply the pension payout.

      Source?

      Delete
    9. CALPERs bilaws. Check it out. Check out Christy Guiren on OMWD as well. and many others

      Delete
    10. Muir is a one term pony…. that Mo Foe better start ponying up some serious contributions to City of Encinitas to even stay in this town..

      Can you say white collar crime?

      Delete
    11. I checked the OMWD website about the Board of Directors who receive $150 to attend meetings. They can not make more than $1,500 per month and they are not part of CALPERS. However, the Directors receive free medical, dental and vision insurance for themselves and their family.

      Delete
  38. I think Wc should have stopped whoever the new guy who is. He was looking for a way to get rid of Dr. L when he started it. I'm not blaming Wc, but I think we have lost someone who gave a lot. My guess it was Jerome.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Disagree 100%. TNC never said anything inflammatory about Dr. L. I've seen some truly despicable things said about her that were way out of line. TNC was talking about a way to pay for PV. Check me if I'm wrong.

      The dialogue on here has slipped down here lately, there's not a lot of thought, but plenty of inflammatory personal attacks. When it gets down to the level of people saying they're investigating people's IP address, that's too much. Didn't we just have a discussion about Peak Democracy and the chilling effect that would have because they can trace IP addresses?

      Think about it people. Chill out on the hate fest. We're all on here (I Hope) to try and change the status quo, make staff responsive, make the pension and pay sustainable and keep the city from becoming one big bar...

      -Mr Green Jeans

      Delete
    2. There's no hate fest going on here, just a lot of truth telling.

      Delete
    3. I agree with that!! lot of truth telling.

      Delete
    4. Not when you attack someone on a personal level. Examples would be weight, what they do for a living, accusing them of being on gov. assistance, anything unfounded on a personal level.

      Let's talk about ideas, what's going on in our city, not attack people over what their job is or isn't. Asking who people are, saying you think you know who they are, talking about their IP address, threatening to "out" them.

      Read back through some of the comments and let me know if you think they're all civil.

      They aren't. Let's up our game, no more talking about Muir's weight, Barth's prior career, Tony's Job, Gaspar's background, Lisa's job history...

      Delete
    5. shut up puss… you sound like you want to live in China or the old Cuba.

      We like free speech… own up to your actions! We have all been slammed one time or another on the blog. Geez- that is unless you truly do not participate. Lets ask WC.

      WC -

      Have you ever been slammed on the blog?

      Did it affect who you are as a person?

      Did it affect your moral compass?

      If the answer is no, its because WC is an adult and has done through the grueling up bring of becoming an adult and learning that other comments don't impact ones internal compass.

      Ones actions impact one's internal compass. Lets look inside.

      Delete
    6. 9:30,

      Yes, but the name-calling is becoming overwhelming and beginning to drown out the legitimate discussion.

      I'm afraid I'm going to have to implement a new rule and dump personal attacks and name-calling to "spam."

      Delete
    7. OK… I hope you do the same for Barth and Kranz and all the other good folks who volunteered to be Council members. Lets realize they have supporters as well and the KLCC comments are just as hateful as any comment about Lynn's or any other KLCC members accomplishments or there lack of…..

      Council member is not an easy job as we can see on this blog. We really need some folk on City Council that can get a good City Manager. First order of business is to:

      Fire Vina!

      Delete
  39. Free speech is important for good discussion. Not every one will agree, but it is free speech. If someone chooses to leave this blog for whatever reason, that is their decision that they made by their own free will.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Lorri has made many enemies in this town by her standing up to some of the powers that be. The ones I know that read this blog are: Marco Gonzales, Dave Peck, Mike Andreen, Jerome Stocks, and Gus Vina. There are others who don't like her, but I don't know if they read the blog so I won't say any names I don't know of for sure. It was once said, by someone, that if everyone likes you, you stand for nothing. I have not always agreed with Lorri, but I have respected that she has never called anyone names, never made personal attacks, or lied. Some of you really sicken me and it takes a lot to do that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WhateEVER……..bottom line Lorri should have posted anon… because in the end she was not transparent enough or truthful enough in the end to be open on a blog. She obviously has issues. I say one word - Integrity- which I believe defines the person who can post their name on the blog without getting smeared.

      Lynn- No. Clueless always defending her position. Always makeing hate statements. Always about keeping it crappy. Always a dependent.


      Fred- Integrity- Need I say more?

      So who are you? Do you let your Actions speak for yourself, or do you rely on hate speech and bitching about everything that could have been done better but yet you stay on the sidelines in your dark home afraid of the light within?

      Who are you and what will you do today?

      Delete
    2. How do you define integrity when you've never met that person? How do you make that call?

      I don't think you're getting WC's point about keeping it civil. Amazing. Check out his latest post on the homepage.

      Delete
    3. As the old saying goes "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

      Delete
  41. I have met both people I referenced many times. I dare. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I think the blog is much cleaner with all the posts removed…. I hope some other ramblers follow as well.

    ReplyDelete