The current city council has continued prior councils' practice of not providing written summary minutes of council discussion, but only "action minutes" which state the outcomes. Encinitas Undercover will provide a forum for observers to record what occurs at each council meeting.
Please use the comments to record your observations.
Really?? These yahoos again ?? Another meeting?? How long will this one take?? What's the over/ under ?? 2,4,6 hours?? What lies will be told tonight?? How wonderful and hard working the staff is?? The city's finances are in better shape than originally thought and we can spend more money we don't have?? I could go on but why???
ReplyDeleteOne thing is certain, city hall will be closed this Friday.
Ohh jeez, Barth thanking San Degiuto water district for doing their jobs!!! Again?? Pleeeezeee. Go away!!!
ReplyDeleteNow Muir telling us to save water by removing your lawn . What nonsense.
Shaffer -nothing to report. Finally she keeps her mouth shut.
Harrumph
ReplyDeleteHarrumph
HARRUMPH!!!!!!
Such wise positive people on thi blog.
ReplyDelete6:11 PM Getting help for that lisp?
Delete8:09- that would be lis.....
DeleteKranz fabricating higher costs for non-toxic pest control and predicting an adjusted quote. Cha-ching! for the contractor, no matter what the actual cost. Nice job, Tony! Myeah.
ReplyDeleteDonna Westbrook and Julie Graboi willing to speak about enterprise software licensing, support, and maintenance agreements.
ReplyDeleteIf you really understand IT, this is really funny stuff. Even funnier: the council may know even less.
What is the funny stuff?
DeleteWhat they are paying is out of line. They could find someone to write a simple front end application that could go on the website for less than $10,000. When it comes to consulting services, they always go Cadillac price and Yugo performance. The contracts always come back several times with a greater cost. Who is getting the extra cut on these contracts??
DeleteAs someone who knows a lot about this field, you are talking nonsense. Julie Graboi couldn't have been more clueless talking about vaporware. I just love seeing comments here written with righteous indignation and being totally clueless.
DeleteI guess the tone and not knowledge is the currency that's traded here.
10:04 AM
DeleteHmmmm. Other cities don't share your view.
From the Argus Leader, Aug. 16, 2014
More than two years ago, Sioux Falls officials persuaded the City Council to spend more than $1.2 million on a new software system.
That system promised to link databases across city government and make it easier for residents and builders to access basic information about property records. It was supposed to go live last September.
But almost one year later, the system still is not operational. City employees have poured countless hours into the project, causing additional expense and frustration. Monthly status reports, meanwhile, reveal that the project was more complicated than anyone realized, and they show that progress has been hampered by friction between the city and Tyler Technologies, the company that acquired the contract as the software vendor. Other communities have had similar problems.
10:04-
DeleteYour argument has been debunked- clearly the record shows Trident is in some instances selling Vaporware- to the tune of millions
So, step up. You either apologize to Graboi, or you give us some facts to support your argument (no opinions please, we want numbers)
Looking forward to your prompt response (don't pull a Brady)
Fact Thrower
10:17 AM & 11:23 AM
DeleteSorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Calling software "Vaporware" means that the vender hasn't completed development and is just promising to be done in time. Believe me, I've encountered vaporware and had to make a vendor demonstrate that it was complete (it wasn't and the vendor was disqualified).
There are many factors that play into a successful software acquisition and implementation, both on the vendor side and the user side. Any of which can cause the project to go off the rails.
Is this acquisition guaranteed to be successful? Of course not but that is true of any project. Tyler Technologies, like many current software companies, has been buying other software companies in order to "compliment" their software and offer a basket of solutions (in market speak). Energov Solutions was one of the companies Tyler bought and had been around since 2002. Their software has been successfully installed by a number agencies, although, as the Sioux City story indicates, not a hundred percent.
I've also successfully acquired software that competing companies had tried to scare us away from by highlighting a single bad, but highly visible, acquisition experience. Turns out the agency in question was misusing the software. It performed brilliantly for us.
Oh, I just noticed that 11:23 AM is our old friend FT. Please don't demonstrate your ignorance here. I have not been debunked. Energov isn't vaporware. I read the Argus Leader story. Even the best software can be implemented incorrectly. Even the best software companies can screw up an implementation. I've seen both happen. And yes, the city can screw it up as well but there is no indication that that will happen here.
But you clearly don't know what you're talking about and trying to explain it here would just take up too much oxygen.
12:06 Thank you for revealing you are a city employee either directly or thru contract - it explains your position of making inadequate excuses to cover for contractors hoodwinking taxpayers.
DeleteIn the private sector Vaporware is spending money and getting nothing in return. It is factual as quoted above in Argus that Sioux Falls spent money on Tyler and got nothing. That is called Vaporware.
Will you be apologizing to Ms. Graboi? Your argument and contention has been proven false, thanks to the facts presented in Argus.
Fact Thrower
Fact Thrower:
DeleteI try not to insult people even if I sometimes chide them. But you are clearly an idiot.
Sorry, I'm not a city employee. Just someone with years of experience in this field who knows what they're talking about.
FT,
DeleteYou don't know what you are talking about.
Vaporware is the practice of some software firms to attempt to secure committed revenue for a product that is still under development. They often create presentations and flash demos to create the illusion that the product is mature. Their engagement with clients tests the demand for the product, assures early adopter sales pipeline, and can be used to prioritize features in the launch version. If the company cannot generate demand, they can kill the project before most of the development cost is realized. From a buyer's perspective, vaporware is a big problem, because the features and function are not fixed, the company could delay or cancel the project, and early versions of software are often buggy.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with Encinitas. The software we are considering exists, and has been installed by other municipalities. It is important to note that this kind of software isn't like Word or PowerPoint. Commercial off the shelf (COTS) software is never just load and go. The software has integrations into other systems the city may use, so there is a level of customization that must be provided through professional services. This is where the project can still go sideways, depending on the number and complexity of integrations and the skill and experience of the services provider.
Failed project does not always equal vaporware.
1:00 vaporware equals buying something that delivers nothing and vaporizes your money. It is that simple, the Sioux Falls city taxpayer money got vaporized-
DeleteYou can make it sound as complicated and as technological as you like, but at the end of the day vaporware is vaporizing money
You could define it that way.
DeleteNo one else one the planet does, but I suppose it's easier to make something up than look up the definition.
2:42 PM
Delete2:59 PM nails it but even so, read the damn article:
"Still, despite the problems, the project manager for Sioux Falls is pressing forward and aiming for a completion date of Sept. 22. Tyler Technologies last week was conducting training classes for city employees.
“I feel very confident that it will happen,” said Debra Gaikowski, the city manager overseeing the project. “Our team has been working like gangbusters to really get this out the door.”
Where is Vaporware when you need it?
DeleteFrom the Freemont Tribune, Sept. 20, 2012
A Tyler Technologies representative again heard complaints from Dodge County officials Wednesday about the Orion assessment software, and county supervisors went into executive session to discuss how Dakota County’s efforts to walk away from the software could affect Dodge County.
It was the second time this month supervisors talked in closed session about Dakota County, which voted on June 25 to return to assessment software in use prior to the state signing a 10-year contract with Tyler Technologies for Orion, and retained legal counsel regarding termination of the Tyler contract.
Be afraid, very afraid - Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, Selects Tyler Technologies' Odyssey Court Management System -
DeleteSecond-largest court system in California chooses Odyssey to replace legacy case management system.
How will the San Diego Tyler Technologies computer program match up with the same program used in Pinellas and Pasco counties in Florida?
From the St. Petersburg Tribune -
CLEARWATER — With only 47 days before its roll-out, officials are finding significant glitches in a $10 million court case management system which, if not fixed, could result in such bizarre scenarios as the wrong person getting arrested on a warrant.
“These are very legitimate concerns,” said J. Thomas McGrady, chief judge for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, which covers Pinellas and Pasco counties. “We are trying to address all of these issues.”
The software system, called Odyssey, manufactured and marketed by Tyler Technologies Inc. of Texas, is paperless and designed eventually to make obsolete the mountainous files and vast warehouses Pinellas courts have used for decades in its role as recordkeeper.
3:37 PM
DeleteOh goodie, let's try to distort the common meaning of a term to mask our ignorance. I haven't watched either Dumb & Dumber movies but I sure something like the above must be in there.
Since we all use Google, you will find instances of users not happy with the software they purchased. There are many reasons for that and the guilty can be on either side and often it's both sides. Does that mean the software in question is vaporware? No.
While from the same company, Tyler Technology, the software in question is a completely different package. It also looks like the state (Nebraska) choose the software for the county. So the problem might be that although the programs functions just fine, they don't work the way Dodge County wants to work.
Take a simple example. You use and love WordPerfect (remember it?). You buy a new computer and it comes with Microsoft Office. You try Microsoft Word but you don't like the way it works or the interface or whatever. So you uninstall Office and install WordPerfect. Does this mean Microsoft Office didn't work? No, you just preferred WordPerfect. The same is true with larger systems just as some people prefer a Mac to a PC.
I'm certainly not trying to defend Tyler Technology. The software the council just approved will have to stand on its own merits. But the idea here that you have identified vaporware is just ludicrous.
You need to stop this foolishness.
3:52 PM
DeleteThey must be lying. From the Pinellas County Clerk of the Circuit Court's website:
Important Notice:
THE NEW PINELLAS COUNTY CASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN ALL COURT AREAS
Odyssey, the new computer system that tracks civil, criminal, traffic and other court records is now online. The new system can be used by the public as well as police, prosecutors, public defenders and others. For the public, it can be used for many tasks, including finding the date of an upcoming court hearing or learning whether a job applicant has an arrest record in Pinellas County. The new system was praised at a recent news conference attended by Pinellas-Pasco Chief Judge Thomas McGrady, Pinellas Clerk Ken Burke, Sheriff Bob Gualtieri, State Attorney Bernie McCabe, and Tom Bartel, a vice president of Texas-based Tyler Technologies, which developed the system. Odyssey gives the public limited access to court records, much like the older system did, but with less confusion and clutter.
FT is in over his head, and can't admit it. But I would like to see the city explore the open source building permit system Santa Cruz is using. It would also be better if we could run it on an OpenStack virtual private cloud. Building permits are highly cyclical--it would be great if our system costs could scale up and down with the BPM and bust cycle of real estate. A traditional system hits capacity limits during active periods, then chews up money sitting idle during slack periods.
DeleteBoom and bust. Not BPM
DeleteEl Paso News -
DeleteFeb. 17, 2014 -
County officials have reported major problems with the implementation of a new $5.3 million case management system.
Several county department heads met with Commissioners Court Thursday morning to report problems with the county's criminal justice information system.
Assistant County Attorney Cygne Nemir said the county has been dealing with problems since the county switched to the Odyssey case management system from the Justice Information Management System, or JIMS, in August. In 2010, the county hired Tyler Technologies Inc. to install the new Odyssey system.
4:36 PM
DeleteYou know, it's like clubbing baby seals. There's no sport to it. It's just slaughter.
First, make a proper reference. It's the El Paso Times not News.
Second, try quoting the relevant sections in the article. The problems isn't the software. The problem is the database design and conversion. The old system worked one way and the new system (Odyssey) works another. Who is to blame for not doing a proper system design? Probably both sides but this isn't a problem of software bugs although there may be some short comings that exaccerbate the problem.
What this does demostrate is you have no clue what your reading. Here's the key part:
" ...
"While the old system used to create a file per offense, the new system creates a file per person arrested. Any error such as a misspelling a name or putting in the wrong date of birth compromises the entire information on a personal file affecting the case.
"Of the 10,000 arrests registered in six months, there are 6,000 unmatched cases, Nemir said.
"Flora Alarcon, the county's chairperson for the Information Technology Users Steering Committee, said many county employees have to spend time fixing problems that the new system has created, taking them away from their daily work.
"Alarcon said under Odyssey, it's difficult to find out who is in custody and who needs court-appointed attorneys.
"The problems have reached the point where some people are missing court hearings because they do not get notices, Nemir said.
"Department heads say if data is entered correctly at the booking process, problems can be prevented.
"They are asking Commissioners Court to hire six people to assist with entering the arrest data at the Downtown Jail.
"Alarcon said department heads have concluded that hiring additional people would help alleviate the problems.
""If the data is entered properly, then it'll trickle down to the other departments and they will not be having issues that we're having right now," Alarcon said. "
The City of Richmond has been using the Tyler Munis product and has been unhappy with the performance. Encinitas uses the same bad system and rewards them with more of our money.
Deletehttp://www.richmondgov.com/Auditor/documents/2010/10-09_MUNIS.pdf
7:48 PM
DeleteSince Encinitas has already installed MUNIS, please show us what went wrong here so that the city should not be adding more modules from Tyler. I wouldn't claim that Encinitas' MUNIS conversion went smoothly (although I have no personal knowledge either way). Dredging up old articles and reports don't apply here.
The irony is that if these articles were about Encinitas we'd be seeing comments about how incompetent city IT staff are (in fact we already are). I haven't seen anyone identify where the Tyler software is deficient.
For example, in the City of Richmond Auditor's report it stated that the new MUNIS system could not process credit card payments and that required the city to continue using the old system for that function. Did the city not know MUNIS lacked that capability when they bought it? Did Tyler mislead the city about it? Was it a module that was being developed at the time of purchase and not ready by implementation (i.e. vaporware)?
From scanning the Richmond document there appears to be plenty of blame on city staff. I don't have the time or inclination to read all 29 pages. When you can identify problems here in Encinitas that were serious enough to call into question the city's continual relationship with Tyler to add additional software modules, then I'll pay attention.
As an employee from another local county government I can confirm that Munis is crap vaporware. Tyler sucks ass, Munis security sucks ass (I have your admin password but you have mine too! woohoo!). Munis is overpriced bullshit. No way around it. You are paying 1.2mil for a damn Sharepoint site.
DeleteComing from another idiot court who chose Tyler's Vaporware they call Odyssey, don't be fooled by the Tyler staff posting before to clear their program. This it is no more than 90s software in a windows based environment. It's sold out of the box only designed for limited use and fixed to the highest bidder. Add insult to injury, they use our workforce to install and do all the labor except for a director they provide. We should collaborate on one large class action lawsuit but, ironically, the system couldn't handle the filing. Get out of California Tyler.
DeleteBob is right.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to count affordable units in the shadows, the City will need to use some pressure tactics.
There is no way to play nice on this one.
Owners enjoy lower property tax assessments, untaxed rental income, and avoid code compliance costs. There is no way slumlord owners will give up these advantages just to be nice people.
Staff as usual presented one side of the situation. Coming into compliance means the owner can count the unit's square footage and does not have to live in fear of being turned in by a vengeful neighbor or tenant.
ReplyDeleteMany don't come forward out of fear if city retribution. There's a nice history there to prove that going after residents is not just paranoia.
"I don't know" is staff's go-to response. Shameful.
ReplyDeleteI bet Rancho Santa Fe is not planning much low and very low income housing. As part of San Diego, they lobbied to push the expansion elsewhere in the city.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should merge with Escondido to create one city with plenty of diverse housing options.
It reminds me of the European fuel mileage targets. They say a manufacturer has to achieve an average fuel economy across their fleet. So Porsche is forced to merge with VW, and Ferrari is forced to merge with Fiat to make the fleet numbers work.
I don't quite understand how Rancho Santa Fe does it. Are they incorporated, are they part of the City of San Diego, or what is their deal? Anyone know how their covenent works?
DeleteRancho Santa Fe is an unincorporated part of the county.
DeleteIt appears the covenant is legally an HOA. Not sure how this shields them from RHNA allocation. Since they are not formally incorporated as a city, they don't have to file an individual housing element, but rather roll up into the county-level housing element. The county HE is full of tables listing towns within the unincorporated areas, then an "other" category. Interestingly, they don't list RSF, as the demographic tables would draw state attention to the lack of affordable housing. Instead they are lumped in with tiny desert cross roads in the "other" category (hiding). The Covenant calls for an Art Jury to approve or deny the aesthetics of any proposal--I'm sure this is used to deny anything they don't like, such as multi-unit buildings or density bonus projects.
DeleteIt seems that if you have enough money, you can create a "Covenant" that shields you from rules that apply to the vast unwashed hoi palloi.
Surprise. Surprise. A different set of rules for the uber wealthy, and the county and state governments play along.
Why do you think so many developers live there.
Delete11:00am - your bias is unbecoming. Let me ask you this....does the housing element affect any of the HOA's that are in Encinitas? Will there be any changes in the zoning of Park Place or Sea Bluff or Sandy Point or Hawkview to accommodate the HE? Are these HOA's bastions of the uber wealthy and serve merely as shields against the unwashed hoi polloi? So why would RSF be treated any differently? Now, believe it or not, there are multi family dwellings in RSF - they're in town and within walking distance to all the amenities. Yes, there is an Art Jury, and they can be quite difficult, but each property is judged both on its own merits and its overall aesthetic contribution to the area. Some people would call that "community character".
Delete- The Sculpin
Since RSF is unincorporated, they are only one area of the larger county in which to place affordable housing. HCD doesn't tell each jurisdiction where to place their affordable housing locations although they may have trouble accepting unrealistic locations.
DeleteSo just like I don't expect any affordable housing locations to be identified along Neptune, I don't expect any in RSF either.
Can we create five HOAs, one for each of the five communities within Encinitas?
DeleteSculpin,
DeleteI don't believe in treating people any differently based on their relative wealth or poverty.
In this case, we have a law. The spirit of the law is to reduce traffic and road infrastructure costs by compelling each community to plan for diverse housing. The intent is that this will allow more people to find housing closer to where they work.
You can argue about whether the law is effective, but as long as it is the current law, it should be applied equally to all communities.
Encinitas is engaged in a very difficult, painful, and politically charged process in an attempt to conform with the law. It is not okay that RSF is allowed to use loopholes and lawyers to avoid the same difficult decisions Encinitas and every city is struggling with.
I'm not bashing them for being rich. I'm bashing them for using their wealth and influence to gain an exemption from a law that should apply universally.
Welcome to the new and improved America, where corporations are people too.
DeleteWow, Muir 2nds motion to pay down unfounded pension liabilities.... ( thereby securing his own and other firefighters pensions ).
ReplyDeleteVina asks to wait to pay this until next year??
Vote passes unanimously.
CFO Gaspar questioning " use of money".
Pension liabilities in the millions (and growing) for a fairly young city with less than 100,000 residents. And no one sees red flags in city governance! Talk about feathering ones' own nest! The fox guarding the henhouse theory applies here.
DeleteDoes Gaspar put on that little green viser head band when channeling her inner CFO?
DeleteTony wants consultant to discuss pension liabilities, Muir wants his own man. Double spending .
ReplyDeleteShaffer, Kranz and Barth propose paying more than the consultants request. Kranz says we can afford it.
If Muir says one more time "as it relates to", I'm going to break my tv and grab him around the waist til all that air leaks out. At least the person he was conversing with on the ceiling has disappeared. Suggestion to Muir "soda is BAD for you".
ReplyDelete11:13PM You're going to grab him around the waist??? You got 50 inch arms??
DeleteI just hope they do something to save Eckert Fields, it's been here since 1957. Our kids need the fields, we don't need another parking lot or offices in their place. Please help to save the fields
ReplyDeleteEcke Fields
ReplyDeleteI agree: Save Ecke Fields!
ReplyDeleteHow ironic would it be that after the Encinitas Community Park is built, there will actually be fewer fields for organized sports leagues to play on for 1/3 of the year?
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/nov/20/change-in-ymca-field-contract-worries-little/
This has been planned for years-
ReplyDeleteThe Eckes/Leichtag want the space to be part of the future high-density transit village on Saxony. By closing down the fields they will argue
1. With declining child population the city no longer needs the fields (the opposite of the lie they told to build the Hall Park)
2. The Hall Park is underutilized given falling child rates
3. THe city needs more housing for millenials and seniors located along transit corridors- Saxony fits the bill
4. The Leightag villa's provide affordable housing and luxury vacation homes along Saxony
Why do you think Peder Norby is working with Leichtag and TOny Kranz went to Israel on a Leightag related partners dime?
This all part of the Y master plan, not the city's. Even Gaspar seemed not to be in the know
but interestingly, Barth and Shaffer not only seemed unfazed by the plans but tried to shut down public discussion
The Ecke family does not own nor control that land anymore. Your scurrilous attack is both unwarranted and vulgar. Crawl under a rock and stay there.
DeleteI often see the Ecke family and Leichtag Foundation being lumped together as if they are one entity. I know the Ecke's sold their lands to the foundation. But I really don't know, are they somehow connected beyond this or is this simply a matter of them being seller and buyer of the same land therefore being lumped? As far as I know the Ecke's are not even Jewish, so I don't understand. Is there a tie or not?
Delete1:05,
DeleteNone. People are idiots.
12:20 nice try attacking the messenger- scurrilous attacks-
DeleteLike the Ecke's or Leichtag foundation is any different then other entities
the Y is targeted to be something other than it is now (the land was given in compromise for land development rights)
The Ecke/Leichtag in perpetutity is to be something other than it is- it is the reason for the Urban Ag charade- up-zoning in the future
nothing vulgar about anticipating the future
12:10 PM Ag land in "perpetuity" - you knew this was a farce. Yep, it is all scheming for the mass development of this land. After Ecke got trounced in the election to pull that classification, it went into long range planning to dismantle the restriction. Anyone who doesn't see the connection is naïve or trying to do damage control.
DeleteThis analyses by 12:10 is spot on.
The YMCA owns the land, donated by the Eckes. They lease the fields to the City, who schedules and maintains them.
ReplyDeleteThe original lease agreement in 1989 was for 25 years (2014) with a 10-year option (2024). The option was agreed to, however the 30-day termination was added to the lease agreement.
Now, rather than fields-thru-2024, the sports leagues have fields thru-30-days-notice-of-termination.
No wonder they're worried.
Not knowing what the YMCA's plans are and I don't think the YMCA has formulated any plans yet, we don't know what potential impact any YMCA expansion will be. It also doesn't mean the YMCA will want to use all of the fields. They may be hedging that in case some future expansion does impact, even in the slightest, one or more of the fields they have some leverage.
ReplyDeleteI'm obviously speculating here but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. Maybe they'll end up using part of one field or want to reconfigure the fields. It's all speculation for now.
From the article, the Y anticipates that their renovation plans will affect one or more fields. The planning process is estimated at 2.5 years. So at least 2.5 years before any changes? But no guarantee as the lease gives 30-days termination rights.
DeleteIt's funny but sad someone would call this an attack on the Y. The inquiry I asked the city to look into is all truth. It's a new lease, there's a new Claus put in, and it's true the Y could end this with just a 30 day notice. So whoever said this was an attack on the Y, I would like to know what your smoking.
DeleteCan't we learn something from the MIG contract where they demanded final payment for the $1.3 million contract before the citizens could weigh in on the General Plan Update? That entire process was a complete waste, and most of what they gave us was recycled work from other cities for which they had already been paid but which Teresa Barth identified as "a template to save money," BTW, the $1.3 million does not include other expenses that were broken out and paid through other City departments like IT, and other funds, so the actual cost of this loss would take a lot of work to find out how big it really was.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a good idea to pay in advance for licenses on future services, so congratulations to Mayor Gaspar for voting 'no' on the Tyler Technologies contract.
"It is not a good idea to pay in advance for licenses on future services,"
DeleteI think you are confusing a few things. There are no licenses on services.
A license is a payment for the right to use copywrited works (software).
Transition services are professional services to migrate data, tailor interfaces and business rules, develop integrations, document policies and procedures, and or test the new system before it goes into production. These services can be provided by either the software vendor or a third-party professional services provider.
Maintenance is an annual charge imposed by the software vendor to gain access to updates and improvements to the software.
Support is an annual charge imposed by the software vendor for support. There are often different levels of support at different price points.
Even if you could opt out of support and maintenance, it would probably be a bad idea to do so.
I understand your point. I had meant to write "and" instead of "on".
DeleteHowever, you sound like so many of our consultants or city employees who are insulting and threatening when citizens question the value of what we are being charged. Apparently, Tyler did not do adequate testing on products that other municipalities are complaining about. Why didn't they mention these other clients when asked except that there are complaints about the product and apparently the services related to their programs.
Apologies if I sounded insulting or threatening. I was going for informed about the industry I have worked in for over 20 years.
DeleteIf you Google the word failure with every top name in enterprise software (Oracle, SAP, Sjebel, Documentum, FileNet, VMWare, etc.) you will come to the conclusion that all of them are utter crap.
I can't vouch for Tyler. I have never worked with their gear. All I can say is commercial software projects can go sour for many reasons--and many of those reasons have nothing to do with the quality or performance of the software.
The integrations, the data conversions, the testing, the client written requirements--all can mess up a project with world-class software.
Here's the thing with Tyler Technologies. The city has been working with Tyler for at least three years now as the city purchased Tyler's Munis financial software to replace their outdated software. Munis is now in place and the Energov software on the agenda this past Wednesday were additional packages from Tyler. So this whole attempt to portray Tyler as some unknown and untested rogue software company is just plain silly. To the city they are a known quantity, warts and all.
DeleteTo 8:39 PM's comment "you sound like so many of our consultants or city employees who are insulting and threatening when citizens question the value of what we are being charged". I don't know about threatening, but sometimes a comment is made, especially in a demanding or insinuating manner, that just reveals the ignorance of the commenter. See above. But I agree the response shouldn't be insulting. The response should attempt to explain why the decision was made.
Unfortunately, there are a few people who won't accept the explanation and act like the explainer is stupid, vile, deceptive, self-serving, etc. Saying you accept the explanation doesn't mean you have to agree with it, just that you accept it was made in good faith.
And no, I'm not a city employee or consultant.
Gaspar can vote "No" all she wants. Her vote didn't change a thing. As I thought, she will be a lame duck mayor and this is just the beginning of a long, long two years.
Delete10:10, there are a lot of questions about our IT Department at the City. They have hired a lot of consultants and run billing through their department, yet our City Website is very poor quality and a lot of basic functionality is below what people in this community expect. The fact that Encinitas like Tyler Technologies and other municipalities are complaining confirms what many say. Our city has poor standards and seeks out poor quality vendors and consultants.
DeleteWith outside consultants, you're going to have it one way or another. Public entities put up a united front. Either they will say they love the IT Provider or they will say they hate it. I worked with Documentum, and it worked for what it was intended for, storing files. When you tried to repurpose it, it failed miserably.
DeleteMy point is, there will be issues with any software if you try to modify it from its original use. I've worked at many companies, public and private, and I've seen this issue with software everywhere I've worked. 10:10 has a valid point.
-MGJ
We hear council praising all kinds of work that ends up being unusable. This IT Department is horrible, and its sound like MGJ actually has more knowledge than the director of IT. Maybe MGJ should take over since at least MGJ has a positive attitude and talks about what can be done not why they can't.
Delete1:19 PM
DeleteOn this blog the basic assumption is that nobody in the city including elected officials, staff and the consultants that get hired can do anything right. I by no means think everything in the city is just peachy but I reject this basic assumption.
The whole thread on Tyler Technology started by referring to comments made by several speakers at Wednesday's council meeting about the Tyler contract which was on consent calendar. As I understand it, Mayor Gaspar is the one who pulled the item off consent to discuss it. Based on their own comments, the public commenters jumped in to also speak on the item. There's nothing wrong with that but those speakers' comments highlighted they did not understand the situation and proposed contract.
Whether you care for their software or not, Tyler Technology is one of the major vendors for software geared to public agencies. The city has been working with Tyler since 2010 and has installed Tyler's MUNIS Financial, HR and Payroll system. Staff obviously was pleased with the experience enough to want to add additional software modules from Tyler. I would wager there were some hiccups during the installation and conversion process but if so, they must have been solved to the city's satisfaction.
In this day and age, hiring IT consultants is often the norm, especially for public agencies. When I got into the business many years ago, the norm was to have large programming staffs and develop software inhouse. Large programming staffs are expensive and the continuing development of robust off-the-shelf software allows public agencies to purchase the software rather than develop it themselves. In the long run it's cheaper and it allows each agency to benefit from software improvements requested by all the vendor's clients.
Website development is a little different as the look and feel of an agency's website is usually unique, although the underlying software package used often influences and constrains the look and functionality of a website. It's also not untypical to have to go with completely different software to add functionality and flexibility which is a sizable undertaking.
Having said all that, I too think the city's website could be better. However, converting to a new financial system is a major undertaking and I'm sure consumed the majority of IT attention. We'll see going forward what changes are in store. Also, when people talk about online functionality, what they see is usually only the tip of the iceberg. There has to be a lot of work on the backend before making it available to the public.
Usual caveat, I'm not a city employee.
2:33 PM
DeleteNot wishing to slight MGJ, but your comment "This IT Department is horrible, and its sound like MGJ actually has more knowledge than the director of IT" is just silly and doesn't help at all but unfortunately is all too much the norm here.
You hate the city. You think they are all incompetent. We get it.
You should be plural with regard to the impression of performance, but I personally love the city and think that we deserve standards that represent the standards that taxpayers expect. Wishing for the highest standards or at least standards of competency is a standard that people in Encinitas who are aware of the problem agree upon.
Delete3:01
DeleteFact- the city for years has operated just fine with the current format for processing business licenses
Fact- the $77,000 plus what likely will be more than $100,000 that will be spent on this "upgrade" would be money better spent fixing a road, a sewer, a bike path, a beach access or park improvements at Cottonwood creek
Fact- Your conclusion that this blog assumes the city can't do anything right is incorrect
Fact- the city did perfectly well with the system we have been using
Fact Thrower
Mayor gives software company ultimatum
DeleteNew utility billing program still not working; January deadline set for fixes
By JENNI GRUBBS Times Staff Writer
Posted: 11/19/2011 09:07:25 AM MST
Fort Morgan Mayor Terry McAlister didn't mince his words Tuesday night when asking executives from Tyler Technologies about problems with the financial software their company sold to the city of Fort Morgan.
"I'm sure you're aware of the (utility billing) problems we've been having," he said. "We really need some hard, stiff answers on whether it can be fixed."
At the end of the discussion with Tyler executives during the council meeting, McAlister gave the company until January to fix the problem or potentially lose the city's business.
"We haven't received the product we were told we were going to have," he continued. "It seems like, when I got three bills last month for the same residence, that is uncalled for. ... We can't expect our customers, our citizens to keep putting up with this. It's embarrassing."
Sandy Peterson, the executive vice president for development at the Texas-based Tyler Technologies, and another company vice president traveled to Fort Morgan to hear from the mayor and the council about issues in the implementation of the software, which now runs both the city's financial systems and utility billing for city gas, electric and water enterprises.
The problem, as the mayor put it, is that it has been nearly five months since the system went live and there has not been a single month when bills went out on time without any delays or problems......
September 20, 2012 11:00 am • Chris Zavadil/Fremont Tribune
DeleteA Tyler Technologies representative again heard complaints from Dodge County officials Wednesday about the Orion assessment software, and county supervisors went into executive session to discuss how Dakota County’s efforts to walk away from the software could affect Dodge County....
Tyler Technologies
DeleteCity officials in Ventura, California filed a $1.7 million civil lawsuit against Tyler. The suit charges that company officials intentionally and negligently misrepresented their products and services.
According to the complaint filed in California Superior Court ."Tyler missed every single deadline and milestone set forth in the contract and was unable to make even one of the 19 modules operational,"
Tyler Technologies
Spokane Regional Health District officials have stopped paying bills from Tyler Technologies Inc., a firm they are considering suing for selling them a $200,000 financial software system they say doesn't work.
(July-02-06) Spokesman Review
Click here for legal help and a free evaluation of your possible case.
A Google search of Tyler Technology and complaints turns up many, many more lawsuits and complaints. How does our city find these people??
DeleteHo hum. That you continue to flog a dead horse only highlights your ignorance. A website name lawsuit (below)? Really? Old complaints?
DeleteI've never said Tyler wasn't without faults or never screwed up. When you've been in the business as long as I have, all software companies have been accused of project delays and sometimes sued. It goes with the territory. Sometimes they are at fault, sometimes the user is at fault but often the blame lies with both to varying degrees.
Remember, this discussion started with discussing Graboi's misuse of the term "vaporware" in comments to the council. Then it devolved into trying to prove Tyler was a terrible company. At first it was irritating but it's become more comedic than anything.
Bottom line is the city has been working with Tyler since 2010. During that time the city installed Tyler's MUNIS financial system and converted over to it. No software project for a city, or any organization, is more central to its operations and stressful than that. There is no better way to find out how competent and responsive a company is. With that project complete the city is adding additional modules. I have to assume that the city is satisfied with Tyler's performance.
Throwing out blanket but unsubstantiated statements about the incompetence of city IT, other than claiming the city website could be better, proves nothing especially given the overwhelming opinion here that the whole city is incompetent.
Fact Thrower, you just crack me up.
10:56
DeleteVaporware - money that is burned, vaporized -
it is simple, you can make it complicated, but facts are facts
Tyler vaporizes tax money - up in smoke
Fact Thrower
Fact Thrower you continue to amuse. Ignorant yet obstinate. You really are a piece of work, unburdened by any self awareness or embarrassment. Keep it up as I need to laugh from time to time.
DeleteSorry but Gaspar is a dummy and that will become more apparent as time goes by, your pandering makes you look ignorant as will.
ReplyDeleteNobody is pandering. I am just an anonymous poster who agrees with her vote.
DeleteIn the final vote count, Gaspar had more people voting against her than for her. Now that should tell you something.
DeleteWhat it tells me is the staff who want to spend our money and Gus Vina got to the other council members and told them that we need this software. Would a competent staff do the same background check that posters on this site were able to do in a few minutes? Also, based on a sad history, some of our staff are so bad that they can't even evaluate the merit of products and services and consequently make bad decisions.
Delete8:56 AM
DeleteWhat it tells me is you don't bother to learn the facts. The city has been working with Tyler since 2010 having converted their old, unsustainable financial software to Tyler's MUNIS. You can't go through a project like that and not get to know your vendor intimately. Apparently, things went well enough that the city wants to continue the relationship with Tyler.
Google is a search engine not a knowledge engine. If you don't understand what you're finding in Google then it won't be of any help. Those of us with real experience in this field understand those stories and are able to put them into perspective.
I can find similar stories for every major software vendor. They all have successes and failures. The reason for either result is often a combination of the vendor and user's efforts.
TexasFile, LLC Sues Tyler Technologies, Inc. For Trademark Infringement And Unfair Competition To Prevent Consumer Confusion
ReplyDeleteFRISCO, Texas, Oct. 31, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- On October 30, 2013, TexasFile, LLC filed a lawsuit against Tyler Technologies, Inc., d/b/a TexFile.com, for trademark infringement and unfair competition. The complaint alleges that TexFile.com copied TexasFile's distinctive name and logo for TexasFile's highly successful website, www.TexasFile.com, which launched in 2006.
"TexasFile invested thousands of dollars and spent several years developing consumer recognition of our trademarks, which include our distinctive name and logo," said President Jason Smith. "It is wrong for a competitor, like TexFile, to imitate our trademarks in a way that is likely to confuse consumers for their own gain."
The complaint alleges that TexFile.com intentionally chose to use a business name, domain name, and logo that are so similar to TexasFile's trademarks that they are likely to confuse consumers. "The confusing nature of these copycat trademarks could also mislead consumers and others to wrongfully believe that the copycat is TexasFile or that the two companies are somehow related – neither of which is true," said Jason Smith.
The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Sherman, Texas, alleges trademark infringement, unfair competition, and trademark dilution by Tyler Technologies, which is based in Dallas. TexasFile's complaint asks the court to prohibit TexFile.com from using the name TexFile, the domain name TexFile.com, its confusingly similar logo, or any other trademarks that infringe on TexasFile's trademarks and that are likely to confuse consumers.
How much does it cost to cut down a large tree - $3000-$4000? The public works department will do it for free.
ReplyDeleteIt has been about 20 months since this purchase, how happy are the people of Encinitas with the new permitting system?
ReplyDelete