Officials unexpectedly announced plans they believe would ensure the future of the San Diego Botanic Garden during the July 9 Encinitas council meeting.That's $375,000 per acre. Try to find a purchase of residential land in Encinitas in the last decade for $375,000 per acre. Quarter-acre lots have sold for double that.
San Diego County Supervisor Dave Roberts reported the county is open to buying 4.8 acres, the city’s share of the garden.
[...]
The city’s portion is valued at $1.8 million, according to a staff report.
For comparison, the city's recent purchase of the 2.6-acre Pacific View abandoned school site for $10 million works out to more than 10 times the price at $3.85 million per acre. Pacific View is admittedly an even more prime location, but is zoned far more restrictively.
To be fair to staff, though, the Advocate story is misleading. Staff did not estimate the current value at $1.8 million. They stated the historical book value at $1.8 million. That is, that's what the property was worth in 1994, not now. Nevertheless, it's interesting that staff and the Manchester press are highlighting this highly outdated number to create a psychological anchor at an extreme lowball value. Will the city receive true market value for its property? Don't hold your breath.
WC, are you including the long term lease at something like a dollar a year in the estimate? If I was going to buy the property, but couldn't use it or make any money off it for 40 years, it would certainly lower the value. A lot. Leases don't dissolve when the deed changes hands.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, I'm okay with the City giving up the parcel below market anyway. We all benefit from having the gardens here. Owning the land makes it easier for the garden to raise money (contributors like to know their donations create a legacy that will last).
City needs to get some money and concessions in return. Maybe a discount for residents? Maybe use of the gardens for a couple of civic functions per year at no charge?
Good point. The property could well be worth less than $1.8 million given the long-term $1/year lease.
DeleteThat would just depend on whether the buyer's cost of capital is greater than or less than the appreciation rate of real estate. You could come up with any number you want depending on those two assumptions.
Well, not really cost of capital, but Net Present Value (NPV).
DeleteStill both variables are uncertain (the rate of real estate appreciation, and the lost opportunity cost of investing that money elsewhere. The long time frame compounds the uncertainty. Business investors would have to build in significant discounts to provide some margin of safety in the investment.
Basically, business investors in this parcel would have to submit a low ball bid, of they offered one at all. I'm thinking the true "market value" of the parcel as determined by an open auction would be surprisingly low.
Now if the Sex Pistols played a charity show there, I bet the bids would go up!
Delete8:34- The true value at acution would be low- you mean like PV wehre no one Bid?
DeleteYou mean like PV where Kranz, Shaffer, Barth and Blakespear had to buy it at any price?
Blakespeare's not on the council yet, lol
Delete-MGJ
As a matter of fact, why not auction the land?
ReplyDeleteWith the lease encumberance, Quail is almost certain to value the property above what a developer could justify spending.
An open bid auction would establish the true market value of the parcel as is, and avoid accusations of a fiscally irresponsible give away.
Quail would surely get the property at an affordable price.
Maybe the Garden could quit charging full boat on parking when you go there to buy plants. Don't do Quail Gardens any favors, er San Diego Botanical Gardens.
ReplyDeleteKudos to Roberts for coming up with a plan, but the city needs more value for the property....
The place is cost prohibitive to visit.
DeleteWill Duval and the board bankrupt the foundation? No foundation - the county could decide to sell the gardens property to a developer.
DeleteIt is a nice place to live.
ReplyDeletehttp://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/03/the-last-best-american-beach-towns/
Is this auction open to anyone ? I'd like to bid on an acre. At. $375K it's a steal. And it's already landscaped.....
ReplyDelete9:17- We already know this. That is why we need to fire Vina to protect it from developers selling us out and having it look like Huntington beach.
ReplyDeleteVACATE VINA. SACK SABINE.
ReplyDelete7:59 AM
ReplyDeleteNo one is going to benefit from giving the city property to the SD Botanical Gardens Board except the board. Duval and the board want to build a convention center on the city land by borrowing 3 or 4 million dollars. This is a big debt for a struggling non-profit foundation. How long do you think the Gardens will exist if Duval and the board continue on their "we are just like San Diego" path?
On second thought, an auction is probably not legal.
ReplyDeleteImagine if San Diego had leased to top of Mt. Soledad to the monument non-profit for 100 years at a dollar a year, then auctioned the property to the highest bidder. The lease effectively poisons the property and provides an unfair favorable position to one bidder.
A fair auction would have to exclude the lease holder.
Better read the lease. Can it be cancelled at any time? The city property is zoned public/semi-public.
DeleteMost leases cannot be canceled at any time--that's called a rental. Leases specify a term, in this case something like 50 years. The whole purpose of a lease is to provide stability to both parties.
DeleteIt's possible, but uncommon that the lease might contain an exit clause on transfer of ownership. Normal practice is that the new owner has to honor the terms of the existing lease. In this case, that means any investor who bought the property from the city would likely have to sit and collect a dollar a year for many years. The lease would have to expire before the new owner could do anything with the property.
10:28 AM
DeleteFrom the 2003 agreement with the city -
3. 8 TERMINATION BY DEFAULT
Except as herein otherwise provided, it is mutually understood and agreed that any breach of any term, condition, obligation or covenant be made by LESSEE in performing pursuant to this Agreement, I5 days after receipt of written notice by CITY
specifically identifying the same, LESSEE shall be deemed in default and CITY may immediately terminate this Agreement...
Seems clear enough. It wasn't clearly identified, but the San Diego Heritage Museum may also have a lease on part of the same city parcel.
There were 15 sealed bids for P V .The developer crowd was licking thera chops
ReplyDelete10:10 I call BS - prove it
DeleteThere were no sealed bids on PV. So one of us doesn't know what the hell is going on. Since I happen to work in a place that would know this, I call BS on 10:10.
Delete10:10, I made one of them.
Delete10:30, Guess you didn't attend early PV meetings at EUSD or meet with Mr. Baird for the walk through to see all the interested parties.
Delete12:35-Interested parties is a long way form submitting a bid. As I said, there were no sealed bids. I didn't say there were no interested parties.
DeleteComplete nonsense! There were No bids, because there was no auction and if the council waited four or five days they could have gotten it for half as much. Dave Roberts is a literal puppet for Pam Slater Price: she hand-picked him and the deal was he keep her entire Staff, which he agreed to. The county money is more of the transient occupancy tax from the unincorporated areas: each Supervisor gets 20% of the total to buy off different special interest groups.
Delete10 sealed bids... from the elves living in Baird's pool house perhaps?
Hey Dave Roberts- if the county cares so much about Encinitas why didn't they force EUSD to comply with the Naylor Act and work with Encintias residents to work out a North County Community Arts center? We got screwed on PV while you sat on your ass.
ReplyDeleteYes, that remains a burning question....
DeleteDave Roberts is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Don't be taken in by all of his smiley face routine. If he wants something he will get it.
ReplyDeleteso where was Dave Roberts during Pacific View? The county could have bought Pacific View under the Naylor Act- where was Roberts?
ReplyDeleteExcellent, Smithers! We'll cry that the state needs more houses so we can pack existing neighborhoods, then sell acres cheap so a garden can expand a thirsty jungle in a desert. Just make sure it doesn't get on the Dumont.
ReplyDeleteI love the gardens but not more homes in this desert.
ReplyDeleteHere is the link to Julie Graboi's FB page. It is now up.
ReplyDeleteJulie Graboi for Encinitas City Council
Well, I guess the link didn't work. Anyway, her FB page is up and it says what it says above. Sorry about my lack to technical skills.
DeleteI refuse to join the NSA FaceBook machine - line up for chambers sheep!
Delete3:15
DeleteThen you can enjoy larger gardens and less parking at home.
What is Julie's position on PV, Roundabouts and Hwy101 streetscape?
DeleteWrite her and let us know, why don't you?
DeleteWhy can't she post it here or on her web page?
DeleteWhen is she going to launch a real web page and not just a FB page. I hate FB?
6:06 you are a troll- it's cool you back Barth who lied to the oublci, increaed our debt, works behind closed doors and is rude to residents- hey some people like skunks I get it, Barth is out there lying in her newsletter again this week-
DeleteGraboi's position's are out there for all to too- maybe you should go to city hall and see what's really happening
So you lead with a headline of "Staff report values prime residential-zoned Encinitas land at $375,000 per acre?" to get the troops riled up and then admit in the last paragraph that "To be fair to staff, though, the Advocate story is misleading. Staff did not estimate the current value at $1.8 million. They stated the historical book value at $1.8 million. That is, that's what the property was worth in 1994, not now. Nevertheless, ...".
ReplyDeleteYes, Whitlock, a usually accurate reporter, inaccurately worded it "The city’s portion is valued at $1.8 million, according to a staff report."
As you said the staff report merely said the book value in 1994 was $1.8M with no attempt to calculate what the current value might be, not even indirectly. So why lead with an inflammatory headline? SOP
Question marks are often used in headlines to imply skepticism, doubt, or that there is something wrong with the story.
DeleteNo. You were trying to fire up the troops as you often do. It's pretty transparent.
DeleteIs this all the City Spin doctor does for $135k a year cost to the taxpayers, blog in defense of Staff?
DeleteWhat else has she done and is doing besides the ridiculous non reliable polling platform costing us more money?
6:09 AM
DeleteIt's pretty pathetic that all you can think of is that I'm the "City Spin doctor". How sad. I'm not her or staff.
No wonder reason falls on deaf ears here.
8:07AM Let's hear your brilliant definition of this position then. (Or whatever you are alluding to).
Delete8:40 AM
DeleteNot sure what you're asking. The topic is the Quail Gardens property staff report where they stated that the property value was booked in 1994 at $1.8 M. That's all the report said. It didn't try to estimate what the current value might be either directly or indirectly. Property values in Encinitas have at minimum doubled since 1994 and probably a lot more. However, property owned by the public is usually constrained in development options so the value won't rise the same as private land. That said we probably won't have a current value until it gets appraised. It's been twenty years.
So your comment "Let's hear your brilliant definition of this position then" I assume is referring to the City's "spin doctor", aka Marlena Medford, Communications Officer. What does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing. Just one of many irrelevant tangents. I've got better things to do and have already spent too much time on this response.
Another way to give the gardens assurance would be to redo the lease as a 50 year lease, renewed every ten, so the property never gets more than 40 years from the end of the lease. As long as there was one pro-garden council every 50 years, the lease would never end.
ReplyDeleteBut the value of the property stays with the town.
So you are saying the lease would run out next time that stinky flower comes into bloom.....????
Deleteamorphophallus titanium aka corpse flower.
DeleteRap Music
DeleteJumbo Shrimp
Plastic Glasses
Hot Water Heater
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How did they miss Corpse Flower?
Jay Lembach, treasurer and financial investment officer for Encinitas prepared next week's staff report for the Council on Pacific View financing. How does he manage to do all that work in addition to his consulting work. He is also the financial investment consultant for the South Coast Water District in Laguna.
ReplyDeleteHe is moonlighting?
ReplyDeleteHe should be shown the door or given more responsibilities so he is plenty busy with no time for moonlighting. I bet his position with Encinitas is Salary not hourly. Moonlighting is not allowed.
Probably the proverbial tip of the barrel of pork barreling in the inner ranks. This is the era of the sliding scale of ethics - is is what you can get away with now.
DeleteWrite Gus and copy Council (or he'll hide your email) and ask if it's allowed, plain and simple. This is our money these stooges are playing with.
ReplyDeleteHe's been "moonlighting" since at least 2008 - so this is nothing new......
DeleteVina and Nash and Lembach's previous bosses knew he has the consulting job? Is he using the city's program to furnish the information to the South Coast Water District? Encinitas taxpayers are getting the short end of the stick.
DeleteThe South Coast Water District has some meetings in the morning. Does Tim Nash or Vina give Lembach time off to attend the meetings?
ReplyDeleteRhonda Graves is now throwing everyone under the bus!
ReplyDelete4:55 PM
DeleteNo, it was Jay Lembach himself that put out the information about his "other" job.
Who is Rhonda Graves and who is she throwing under the bus?
ReplyDeleteIt's getting awfully crowded under the bus.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the better question who is casting aspersions on Rhonda Graves? It looks like someone is afraid of the revelations of dysfunction at city hall.
ReplyDeleteExactly right!
Delete4:55 calls it throwing under the bus, when it's actually a long-overdue light shown in the corners of Vina's heavy-handed and sneaky practices. Throwing someone under the bus is different.
ReplyDeleteShe is a brave ex-City worker who no longer needs to fear getting fired over telling the truth and outing the harm that Vina does to the rest of us.
?
ReplyDeleteDetails please
Go watch the video for yourself and stop being such a lazy ass. Rhonda identifies herself and you can have a listen.
DeleteIs she the same woman who spoke at a Council meeting a while back and looked Vina right in the eye and told him she was going to talk,even though he had told her not to? If so, I like her. She has gumption.
ReplyDelete6:38 Many people have "gumption". Now I suppose you are going to tell us you know something about her, but you can't tell.
ReplyDeleteTime to remove your own post.
It's fading, fadin. fadi. fad. fa. f,.................................
DeleteYou know what continues to amaze me? How a community that has such intelligent people all around, have such hate toward someone they know or perhaps don't know? I'm actually doing a paper on this, so if anyone has ideas pour them on. And, no, 6:46 I have a clue, except I saw a woman do that at a City Council Meeting. I thought she showed courage and gumption. Did I miss you at that meeting?
ReplyDelete7:04 You weren't at that meeting. You said you were watching it on tv. Make up your mind if you can.
DeleteDr. L, I work on the web and I can tell you that when cloaked in anonymity, people will say or do almost anything. That's why a lot of sites have gone to a degree of identification via a login like Facebook.
DeleteI bet none of these people would say what they say on here to your face. That would take to much guts, and time to step out from behind the computer.
There's still a lot of great info on this site, but the bad behavior is not helping the stature of the discourse.
People love hyperbole, hatred. I don't know how many times I've said that the spin dr. does not make $135k. The position was approved for that amount, she probably makes $75k plus benefits.
I think we all agree that Vina has to go, but apparently some would rather fight amongst themselves than do anything about it. First step is getting Julie Graboi elected...
-MGJ
MGJ - works just like the rest of us. I guess we could all make up initials and make people happy.
DeleteJulie in, Vina Sabine out. That works.
DeleteMGJ-
DeleteNo one said the spin doctor makes $135k per year. I have said it costs us tax payers $135k per year. There are massive benefits and overhead costs associated with City Positions. Hence, can the spin doctor and put the needed money towards projects.
The $135k spin doctor position does nothing towards bettering our City.
MGJ knows the city council voted againts residents who spoke in opposition fo the hiring of a spin doctor and approved Gustavo Vina spending up to $135,000 in base salary for the hire. Everyone knows Marelena was hired for less than $135,000, however when her benefits, vacation, pension and other costs are factored in, along with employee pay-roll taxes etc the burden to taxpayers is still well over $135,000
DeleteShould have said "I don't have a clue". Typing fast, so I can sit down to dinner.
ReplyDeleteDr L
ReplyDeleteDon't let the haters get you down. They're just trying to get you to take the bait so they can feel superior.
I don't always agree what you say but you do have integrity and humility when challenged. That's always a good trait in my book.
I see no hatred here, just a lot of people saying how they feel about a particular person. How many times have we heard that Vina and Sabine need to go. I don't put that in the "hate" category. I put it in the "dislike" category. Between the two words, there is a world of difference.
ReplyDeleteIf someone doesn't agree with someone else, that does not imply :hate. Sounds like someone here is looking for sympathy in order to "write a paper". Now that's what I call "spin".
XYZ
9:49- You kind of just proved my point. Thanks.
ReplyDelete9:56 No hatred intended. I proved my point and not just "kind of". Try to write a "happy" paper.
ReplyDeleteI agree with 10:23. I see very little hate, but many honest answers. Many people can handle the truth. That is why in school, everyone is a winner and there is very little competition. That is a large part of the reason why 50% of Americans are on the Gov. Tit and sooooo complacent. America has lost its edge and is a lazy and complacent. And Tim Baird could care less, because he will be collecting a huge pension.
ReplyDeleteNow was that hate towards Baird? -- No. Just plain truth.
Lorri- you have to admit. Your credibility on what you say and do is seriously lacking. Take for example- "I will not be posting on this website again". Ha! Good one. Ego is a funny thing isn't it?
The truth hurts.... Long live the truth..
DeleteMany people CAN'T handle the truth, not "can". Sorry - I am typing to fast and have to go to work, to support all you slackers.
ReplyDelete9:09- I appreciate the comments, as you must know my bizarre sense of humor. I also realize that my comments can sound egotistical, and from now on I will do my best to not fall into that trap. Posting as Dr. Lorri was something I decided a long time ago and even though I know I have the option of posting anonymously, I have chosen not to. But, the poster that has alluded to me being egotistical, and how I would never post on this blog, is right. I do sometimes sound egotistical, and I realize that is a fault of mine. I have also said I would never post again on this blog. Again, the poster is right, as I am posting right now. So, my humble apologies to any of you who think I am a whiner, sniveler, arrogant, or whatever you may think. I would like to know all of you personally, but that is most likely not in the cards. Now, back to the post.
ReplyDeleteI think 9:09 and 10:32 are posted by the same person. How bizarre is that?
Delete